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The Pentagon Attack Arguments List : Fly-over, Or Head-on Impact?, Just two options left : NoC fly-over, or NoC 90° impact.

LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 01:45 AM
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The Pentagon Attack Arguments List : Fly-over, or Head-on impact?
Just two options left : NoC fly-over, or NoC 90° impact.

I first want to address an important note to all readers of this thread, who are genuinely interested in the real, historic truth of the day of 11 September 2001.

I am still not convinced that there is one solid and overruling Pentagon attack theory.
At this date, there are several possible scenarios at hand, which perhaps could be proven the day after tomorrow already, by such convincing, iron-clad evidence, that all left-over traces of doubts are washed away, for all citizens.
I would really welcome the day that we can leave all the internal bickering behind, and step up to the task of bringing real justice to everybody.

As we, the firm believers in the witnesses of a, by CIT unearthed, NoC (North of CITGO) flightpath flown by the Pentagon attack plane, all know by now, we have to live with a very vocal group of opponents, who firmly believe the opposite, South of CITGO officially endorsed flightpath, as envisioned in for example Mike J. Wilson's animated

"911 Case Study: Pentagon Flight 77" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8...player_embedded





We know however, when listening to CIT's earliest interviews, that for example Pentagon police Sgt. Lagasse, bets his life on the fact that he saw the plane fly north of the gas station where he was filling up his gas tank under the northern canopy of that CITGO gas station.
For the shock of your lifetime, in case this is the first time you are going to see this, and you are a firm "officially endorsed south of CITGO" flightpath believer, because you have a natural trust in your representatives chosen also by so many of your fellow citizens, which politicians nearly all do not protest the official 9/11 storyline told by the US government and its institutes to this day, here are the :

"Highlights from interviews with eyewitnesses/Pentagon police officers SGT William Lagasse and SGT Chadwick Brooks" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elKov_UZDQE...player_embedded



And you can never accuse William Lagasse to be a "wacky Truther".
He vehemently defended on several online forums and blogs the officially endorsed Pentagon attack explanations, in the years before he got interviewed by CIT.
It is crystal-clear, that he was really shocked after he realized what the implications were from his genuine eyewitness evidence he laid out before us, heard from his own mouth and enforced even more by his drawing of his observed flight path on an aerial photo of the Pentagon area. He even tried to make it appear in his story as if he witnessed a downed light pole, but later on admitted that he himself, had seen not one light pole being hit in real time. He heard and saw about it, as so many, later in the week and much longer after that in the various news coverages. And read about them in online 911 websites.
But he kept pointing out in this video, on his own flight path drawing, that the plane's body, flew over Route 27 within let's say 30 to 50 meter to the right of the two trees in front of the Heliport landing platform with the huge H painted on its concrete.
He said in the end of the video, that the taxi must have stood also there, if it had been speared through its windshield by a downed light pole, which pole must have been downed then at the point he put his finger on, very near those two trees along Route 27, planted in front of the Heliport landing pad.
We all know by now, that nobody ever saw or photographed downed light poles there.
They saw and photographed 5 light poles cut and landed on the grass or concrete, just after the point where Columbia Pike goes under the overpass of Route 27 over the Pike's last 100 meters.
And that's about 300 meter further southwards, down the road.
And that was also the point where the taxi with the broken windshield and a broken light pole in front of its nose was photographed. Which makes the statement of the taxi driver, and the placement of his taxi, an obvious part of a false flag operation.

Just as his colleague Sgt. Chad Brooks says he saw it fly there, north of the CITGO's northern canopy roof; he stood on a parking lot, beside his car, on the other side of the road which goes along the west side of the CITGO (Joyce Street), which street then, 60 meter further, joins the long curve in Columbia Pike which leads towards the underpass under Route 27, the highway that runs along the western Pentagon lawn, and Columbia Pike that ends then at the western entrance of the Pentagon's huge South Parking lot.

And just as the then enlisted military man Sean Boger, at that time the Pentagon Heliport-tower air-traffic flight controller, saw the plane coming towards him in his control-tower, from a point it was flying low over the Y-shaped antenna at the center of the roof of the last, 8th Wing of the Navy Annex, passing the CITGO station in his angle of view to the right (that's the north side), all the way flying in a slight right bank, correcting that bank just before Route 27 by a slight left bank movement, and impacting the west wall of the Pentagon about 60 meters to the right of his flight control tower windows ( left of his left shoulder). Those Heliport control-tower windows were at level with the west walls' second floor-level windows, about 6 meters/yards above ground.

And just as the four Arlington Cemetery maintenance workers, interviewed first by the Center for Military History (CMH) group, and later also by the CIT team.
They all four indicated a plane coming in a slight right bank towards them at the ANC maintenance buildings, situated on The Arlington National Cemetery grounds, on the other, northern side of the parking lot behind/beside the ANC's buildings boundary fence, which parking entrance is on the long curve in Columbia Pike, which is there swirling around the CITGO gas station. They all four vividly explain that they were afraid that the plane was coming down and crash right on top of them, standing there, in front of those ANC buildings, 200 meters to the north of the CITGO gas station. But the plane right-banked away from them, over the highway called Route 27 a.k.a. Washington Boulevard and impacted the west wall of the Pentagon.
They concluded that from the sound, smoke column rising, and later from the news, they however did not really see an impact, because the ANC buildings and the tree foliage blocked their view on the lower part of that west wall.

CIT: National Security alert :
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/nsa.html

CIT: The PentaCon. Eyewitnesses Speak, Conspiracy Revealed. (Smoking Gun Version) :
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=EYQHPMS8&setlang=en

The pure fact that they and many more with them, saw the plane fly on the north side of the CITGO, immediately negates the official SoC theory with all its accompanying "evidence" , since it's aeronautical impossible for a NoC flying plane, to force its way back to the officially endorsed SoC flight path, before hitting pole Nr. 1 in a nearly horizontally leveled-off flight level position.

Thus, that "South of CITGO evidence" was all falsified. The damage path must for at least 60% have been caused by demolition explosions, while the first 40% can come from a head-on, nearly 90° impact of a NoC flying attack plane.

Or all of it was not from AA 77 impacting, which was flying over the west wall roof line, away over the west wall's roof, as the two founding fathers from the CIT team and, so to see, at least a part of the Pilots for Truth, to this day strongly believe.
These Pilots base this on a decoded FDR which has been made public by FOIA requests. They found a too high last written Baro Pressure meter position of the plane into the FDR, for it to be able to dive down and still hit the west wall in a nearly leveled off flight path in the remaining very short time.

Since the NTSB got the FDR from the FBI who said they found it inside the Pentagon in the wreckage path there, in fact only one sane conclusion is left over then, especially when you see the Pilots for 911 Truth their evidence that the FDR shows a too high flying plane.

CONCLUSION 1.
The FDR must be a falsified FDR. Where at least the last 12 seconds have been altered.
From around the Sheraton Hotel, up till the impact point.
This is the most logical and strongest conclusion, based on a strong believe in those recorded eyewitnesses by the CIT team, which all position the plane in a north of CITGO flight path.
An "inside the Pentagon found" black-box's FDR can never be combined with a plane flying so high in the last 2 seconds, that it must have flown over the roof. Thus, this FDR is false.

And "they" waited to hand that FDR over under a FOIA request until they knew from what point on in the FDR they had to alter the data in such a manner, that it still coincided at first glance, with as many possible eyewitness reports, and still "proved" a south of CITGO approach, which also covered all 5 "downed" light poles. And on top of that, the damage path inside the Pentagon first 3 rings.
They have altered the original last 12 seconds data only. No need to change any data before that.
There are no earlier solid eyewitness reports which could pinpoint the plane's position sufficiently secure to a precise point on a map of the area. The first reliable witness account for the plane's altitude and its position above ground is the woman inside her room in the Sheraton Hotel, who saw through her window the plane closely passing the hotel's south side facade, on its way over the Navy Annex towards the Pentagon. And then Perry Morin, and the military man standing in his room at the east side of the last Annex building, the 8th Wing. He saw it passing over the Annex roof above him, over his right shoulder. His room was at the north end, looking out over the CITGO and towards the Pentagon and Washington center.


The following, second, seemingly possible, however weaker conclusion is always negated and disproved by the first, strongest conclusion, but nevertheless I will write it out for you, so you can contemplate on the only possible logical conclusion when both seemingly possible cases are compared and then show the logical fallacy in this second, wrong, "conclusion" :

ILLOGICAL "CONCLUSION" 2.
Since the FDR must have been inside a plane that was still flying after the artificial "impact point", as this FDR last altitude data shows, then that plane must have flown over the Pentagon.

Because it was impossible to impact the Pentagon from the FDR-reported Baro Altimeter pressure-meter altitudes in the last recorded sub frames, i.o.w. row of portions-of-a-second of the flight path. That data placed the plane much too high above the roof level of the Pentagon.
(Keep in mind now, that CONCLUSION 1, that the FDR is falsified for at least the 12 last seconds, is the first and strongest one. This above second conclusion is however based on a false assumption, namely that the last reported altitude is suddenly right, and NOT falsified as can be concluded from Conclusion 1.).

In that case it should have needed to fall like a brick instantaneous, i.o.w., "warp" from about 200 feet above ground, to 4 feet above ground (which was the last Radio meter reading according to Warren Stutt.)
And thus it seems at first glance logical to conclude that the plane flew away, low over the Pentagon roofs which are about 75 feet high, plus a few small antennas.
However, since the FDR is false, this altitude registration is a total fraud, and thus non-existing, and we can't conclude then after having proved that the FDR is bogus, that the plane must have flown over the Pentagon roof.
Such a line of reasoning is a fine example of a logical fallacy reasoning.

However, a MUCH more logical conclusion is, that the person(s) who were in charge of retracting the data from that FDR, falsified that FDR, and he/they made that huge mistake, and not the FBI which has no expertise in decoding FDR's, by feeding back into the FDR data streams, the right radio-altimeter transceiver data, but the wrong pressure-altimeter data, back into the solid state memory block of that flight data recorder originating from the so-called black box found in the Pentagon. They (or he or she) have thus retracted the original data streams from its memory block, then painstakingly changed the last, say, 12 seconds and switched the data back into the FDR, erasing the original last 12 seconds. There was probably no need to alter all the other, preceding, huge amounts of data.

This kind of falsification is exactly what has happened also in the crashed first Airbus demonstration flight in France, where the company did falsify the recovered FDR, to be able to put the burden of the crash on a "pilot fault", instead of a software fault, which was the real reason the Airbus could not be pulled out of a low fly-by for interested buyers. It glided slowly lower and lower to end up in the trees from the wood at the end of the runway and crashed and burned out.
We found out that the FDR was false, after we found a photo from the just found original 2 "black" boxes (they are orange or red) standing beside the legs of an European FAA man, while the Airbus Company and the authorities always showed different colored and shaped boxes to the public, as being the "original" ones.

As Dennis Cimino pointed out lately, it is very suspicious that the FDR did not show any sudden rudder/foot-paddles movements, or any other input during the so-called physical hi-jack period. And also not after the hi-jacker pilot must have been seated in the pilot seat. All the way to the Pentagon. That's quite unbelievable, that an inexperienced 757 pilot did not use any rudder movements to make that huge circle around the Pentagon, and dived down to Route 27, and leveled off without any foot paddles usage. And no sign of rudder input while the real pilots left their chairs.

According to the Pilots for Truth, all certified pilots from every airline will always keep their eyes on their barometric pressure Primary Altimeter, in other words "The Altimeter" or altitude meter, and discard any always alternating altitude readings of the radio-altimeter during low flights.
And that is the only quite logical behavior.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10793650

Since that radio-altimeter can, and will report, many different altitude readings while in a landing approach (low over the ground), since radio signals emitted by the plane, will during any low flown flight path, bounce off a multitude of times from a multitude of objects on the ground, much higher than the ground level. Like buildings, trees, bushes, masts, flocks of birds or road signs. The pilots know by heart, that in the landing phase of their flights, they can not ever rely on that alternating radio-altimeter readings, and risk their life and those from their passengers and crew in believing that those are reliable readings. They know very well they are not.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10793038

And a pressure altitude meter will not be influenced by any obstacles on the ground, since it retracts its data solely from the local pressure values while descending. Which differ very slightly compared to different low altitudes, but measurable enough by that pressure-meter's valves, at different low altitudes. And that's why solely that pressure-altitude meter gives the right, reliable altitudes during low above ground, runway approach flights which fly over urban or hilly terrain.
It's the only on-board altitude meter not constantly influenced by objects build above ground level.

Rob Balsamo from Pf911Truth :
QUOTE
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10793490
""The only way to tell what the RA is measuring from (a building, trees... other objects...) is to check it against your Primary Altimeter as you have a solid reference for this height, which is from sea level. Final MSL height in the "extra" data Warren decoded shows 174' MSL (above sea level), RA shows 4'. This can only mean the RA was bouncing off an object higher than ground level and the MSL height shows too high to hit the Pentagon.""

MSL = Main Sea Level.
RA = Radio Altimeter.
Primary Altimeter = Barometric Altimeter.

Thus, since the NTSB handed-over FDR pressure-meter data itself, show a too high flying plane, that FDR must be either true and the FBI-story telling us that they found it in the Pentagon between the plane wreckage must be false, or this whole FDR, provided after a FOIA procedure, by that same, thus mis leaded FBI, must be false.

After that, the most probable conclusion will be, that a plane did in fact hit the Pentagon, as so many eyewitnesses reported already on the day itself. And many more later on. Thus it could not have flown away over the roofs on its falsified, too high altitude, found in the last seconds of that false FDR.
Simply said, if the FDR is falsified, a plane did not fly over the Pentagon, since the "evidence" for a too high altitude in that false FDR, and thus a fly-over, is falsified.
Thus logic prevails then, and forces us to fall back on the heap of true eyewitnesses, who all reported that a plane impacted the Pentagon's west wall.

The 9/11 planners reason to falsify that FDR, must have been the inconsistency of the last 12 seconds real data on that memory block in the black box they said was found inside the wreckage path in the Pentagon, with the overall scenic picture they had prepared to enforce the direct acceptation of the billions of global media watchers, that a plane flew in a straight and leveled-off line, in those last 12 seconds, from a point in the air beside the Sheraton Hotel, straight to the impact point. And under an angle with the west wall of around 61.5° true magnetic, and "cutting" 5 light poles in the last 300 meter. And the internal damage which was laid/exploded out in an extended line through the center of those 5 light poles.

And when you observe, and listen to, these 13 eyewitnesses while being interviewed by CIT in the above videos, they do not express any sign of lying, on the contrary, they are all firmly convinced of what they saw and describe. A, for some last flight path part, definitive NoC, flight path flown by a commercial airliner.
Thus, when you combine the Pilots for Truth altitude-case with the 13 CIT-witnesses case, the plane can only have impacted on the same spot as filmed already minutes later, but under a totally different angle as told to us by so many officially endorsed US institutions. Under a nearly 90° angle, in other words nearly head-on.

And then it must have ended with its nose cone at the outer wall of the first ring, the E-ring. Which is shown in the ASCE report as the furthest damage-path point when you follow a head-on penetration path.
And it certainly could not have ended at that artificial "exit" hole in the outer wall of the C-ring.

And it definitely did not fly in from a more southernly approach and a much sharper angle, while supposedly downing 5 light poles on the way in.
Like the US government still defends as their interpretation of what happened at the Pentagon on 11 September 2001.



Nevertheless all of the above logic, we still have to convince the until now uninterested part of the populace, plus the interested but mis leaded part, plus the hardcore, mis leaded but still strongly patriotic, SoC defenders who can't bring themselves to mistrust the "State", that they are wrongly believing a lot of their "democratically chosen" representatives in government and military ranks.

We need to convince all these people that the following visual and invisible markers (at first sight, quite convincing to the lay person with little to no time spend on 9/11 issues) which were left behind by the planners of a SoC flight path, are all part of a sophisticated "false flag" operation, which is still unfolding and maintained (and defended) to the present day by said government and military.
Such markers are :

The five light poles being "downed" by the wing-tips of a SoC flying plane.
The "downed" pole nr 1 which "speared through" the taxi's front window.
The generator trailer's front, diesel storage tank roof damage, "caused" by the right wing impacting it, and the damage to the fence in front of it, "done" by the right jet-engine housing.
The FOIA released FDR data file (Flight Data Recorder) "originating" from the black box found inside the AA 77 wreckage path inside the Pentagon, and its accompanying raw CSV file ( Comma Separated Values) and its flight path animation file made by the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board).
However, this animation, and all other NTSB provided 911 animations (UAL 93 also) had a time-specific error in it, and much later on, the NTSB described that animation as simply a "working copy" that was "never used for an official purpose". But why did they put it then in the same FOIA package, specifically meant for public release? To fool the truth-seekers?
The external "impact evidence" of wings and fuselage imprints on the west wall's facade. These imprints can be interpreted as caused either by a SoC, 61.5° angled impact; or a NoC, nearly 90° angled, head-on impact.
The entrance hole in the west wall, big enough to fit the diameter of a Boeing 757.
The "full" internal damage path depicted in the later published ASCE report.
The wreckage parts "found" inside the building's damage path.
The wreckage parts found on the Pentagon's west side grassy lawn, and on Route 27 by witnesses standing or walking around on that highway just after the impact.
The "exit" hole in the C-ring wall, which looks more like an emergency entrance hole, blown inwards from the open AE-Drive side. This hole is explicitly used by myriads of "experts" to show to uninformed readers, that you can draw a line from it, through the C, D and E-ring, and through the middle of those 5 "downed" light poles, to arrive by a too obvious SoC flight path for the attack plane.

However, when you viewed the CIT videos with the 13 eyewitnesses for a NoC flight path, and see how convincing these witnesses explain how they saw a north of CITGO flying plane, then you also believe suddenly, that all of the above markers must be evidence of a false flag operation, on a massive scale.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 01:52 AM
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Thus, let us make a :

Comparison of possible 9/11 Pentagon attack scenarios, where all North of CITGO gas station witnesses are accepted as truthful.

REFERENCES :
1. http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/ (All their research explained in their forums.)
2. http://www.thepentacon.com/ (All their research explained in their forums.)
3. http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/fa..._plane_hit.html

QUOTE
From Ref.3 : Conclusion: "It is impossible for any fixed-wing aircraft to cause the directional physical damage to the light poles, generator trailer, and the Pentagon leading to the C-ring hole approaching from directly over the Navy Annex and north of the former CITGO gas station. The flight paths illustrated by the witnesses would require G forces beyond the physical limitations of any aircraft for it to transition to an approach that lines up with the physical damage. Additionally, a hypothetical least challenging scenario at low speed would require bank angles that are irreconcilable with the physical damage, as well as the witness statements, and require an instantaneously performed roll that is impossible for any fixed-wing aircraft.."



I do agree with that conclusion, worded as it is.

It is totally impossible for any wide body plane to make a maneuver which makes it possible to change from a NoC path back again to a SoC path in only a very few seconds (about 2), performing such a task after it passed north of the CITGO gas station. And in such a manner, that it would be lined up with the damage to the five downed light poles, and was again level with the Pentagon lawn, to impact the west wall at the officially declared 42° angle, with its right wing up 3°.
One has to also understand that both wings, moving at the officially declared speed of 460 miles per hour at impact, will be strongly flexed up. Even more in such dense air at ground level.
Normally, at 30,000 feet cruising altitude, every passenger can see the already quite flexed up wing at his side of the plane, if he has a window seat near or on the wing root. And that happens in such thin air we can not breath fast enough to survive, at 10 kilometer / 30,480 feet high in the air.
Essentially, switching from a modest right bank, with an instantaneous flip-over maneuver, to a sudden left bank, while nearly instantaneously leveling off again. In 2 seconds.
I hope the reader does not believe that, and understands that it is impossible.

See the next two conclusive examples for such an impossibility, posted in the Pilots for Truth forums. I think they are both constructed by Rob Balsamo, the founder of that site.

This is what is possible.





This is impossible.



(Animated GIF images courtesy of Pilots for Truth.)

All witnesses described a very smooth right bank when they saw the plane coming to them from over the last Navy Annex, the Nr. 8th building's roof. Not a plane hanging on its right wing tip, as seen in the above second, last animation.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 01:58 AM
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So, let's try a somewhat different approach of the Pentagon-attack its anomalies problem :


QUESTION 1 : Is it possible for any fixed-wing aircraft to cause any part of the directional physical damage to the Pentagon's west wall, approaching from directly over the Navy Annex and north of the former CITGO gas station ?

A: Yes, but only the inward wall breaching imprint part, from a NoC, nearly head-on plane impact, photographed during the first 19 minutes, before that part of the E Ring outer west wing wall, plus its following internal first ring-constructions, partially collapsed. Thus only the internal head-on (perpendicular, about 90° angle) partial damage path up to the outer wall of the first ring, the E-ring.
The columns inside that later collapsed E-Ring wedge were probably heavily damaged or obliterated by the incoming plane fuselage's long, strong longitudinal beams; its 2 jet motors their internal titanium, steel and strong aluminum-alloy compression blade's chambers; and its 2 wings and their 2 strong wing-roots and the 2 wing 's strong spars and ribs. And the 3 landing gear's massive steel legs. One in the nose and the two others, one in each left and right wing root end.



Landing gear strut. One of the strongest parts of an airplane, quite heavy too. So, why is it laying on top of a scrap heap? It weights hundreds of kilos. It should be under it. Especially if it were the nose wheel gear strut. The first heavy object to hit the West wall, and logically, suspected to penetrate the furthest inside the Pentagon's wedge rings. It looks as if it was planted there, or moved from another position, where ever that could've been. They say that it was found inside, allegedly very near to that C-Ring "exit" hole in AE-drive.

And don't forget the weight of the left-over jet-fuel in the wing tanks, and the fuselage main tank. The most devastating effect of that fuel weight are caused in the first moments of a plane's impact, after that, the fuel will be dispersed into tiny droplets and a mist of tiny fuel parts. Which will be bounced back for a great part and ignited.

But after the partial collapse 19 minutes later than the impact, there was no physical evidence left of what could have been found in that collapsed part. I do not know of any photographs taken during the cleanup of that collapsed part, and thus we do not have any substantial evidence on film or photo, of what was found in that heap of collapsed rubble.
The engineers who wrote the engineering report issued under the auspices of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE), as directed by an Army engineering officer as chair (ASCE 2003), were only first allowed to enter the damaged areas after 3 October 2001, when all the rubble was removed, so they never had a chance to photograph and study anything found in that rubble pile from the collapsed portion and inside the still standing portion.
We could expect the right jet motor parts and the right landing gear parts to be found there.
Never heard anything from those, however, only one landing gear leg allegedly photographed near the C-ring ("exit") hole in the outer wall turned up.



Still smoking "exit" hole, first known photo, no markings painted yet on the walls beside the hole. Big heap of clearly light office trash on the right side in the hole.
One thing nobody ever commented on : when this was an "exit" hole, where the hell are the huge heap of bricks then, which had to be laying under that clearly light office debris?
That was a thick wall, where a lot of bricks fitted in that former wall piece.


That "exit" hole, at an outer wall of the AE-Drive, three Pentagon Rings deeper, wasn't an exit hole, but an entry hole, blown inward probably by a thin plastic wall breaching unit filled with water positioned on the AE-drive road its C-ring wall side, to re-direct nearly all the first explosive force from a thick det-cord inlay, inward. And thus to cause no visible damage to the walls and windows on the other side of the AE-Drive. And that's why most of the bricks must have layed inside. Since we don't see much of them laying outside. Only a few, about 30 to 50 single bricks, and on the wrong side, the left side.

That hole could not have been made by the plane's nose cone, as has been said in the first year after 9/11/2001.



Nose cone. Lightweight, thin streamlined cover of the forward radar disk. Not the dimension to burst the C-ring hole. The first object to be totally shattered when hitting the massive West wall.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:04 AM
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Detail of brick damage of the C-ring hole, caused by an explosive wall breaching kit. This was an "entrance hole" instead of an "exit hole". Bricks are blasted inwards in small shattered pieces from the outside of the wall in a direction inwards. And not broken outwards; in such a case the bricks would end up as rough square pieces broken out and blasted into the road. Compare this detailed photo of the C-ring hole to my next detail photo of a military wall breaching kit, called "the Gate Crasher".



Gate Crasher wall breaching entry hole. This entry hole made by a military wall breaching kit, filled with water to concentrate the explosive power on the wall itself, looks eerily identical to the so-called Pentagon "exit" hole. Source : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENfxqvKoIaE



This photo is taken from the left side of the hole, suddenly there's a piece of unburned, but crinkled airplane fuselage added on top of the dry wall sheet outside the hole, on the left side. The two round objects which looked like wheel rims on top of the trash heap in the first photo , are gone.



Maintenance road. Note the blind wall on the B-ring side (to the right), opposite of the C-ring wall where the rolling door and the other door were, which also vented a lot of smoke. The B-ring wall at the other side of the C-ring "exit" hole had only windows on the second floor. Thus, a wall breaching back fire blast radius which was aimed 60° downwards from the top down, would not damage the opposite B-ring walls. Only a few windows higher up were broken. Could be from the air pressure wave cascading 60° up, from the road to the lower part of the B-ring up, from C-ring wall back to B-ring wall and back up again, and so on, all the higher floors up until it reached the roof space where the blast wave dissipated in open air.



Wedge 1 overview + damages. Note the three smoke vent openings in the C-ring wall. One smaller door, one wide rolling door, and the "exit" hole. Note also that the C-ring "exit" hole is the psychological natural-acceptance "closing evidence", for the official 61.25° to True North, and 42° to 53° angle to the West-wall damage path. Without it, that path is by far not so precise to construct. The five downed light poles on the other side, outside the West wall "entrance" hole, are exposed as definitely faked by 20 North of CITGO flight path witnesses. The only evidence left is then the inside-damage debris path study from Purdue University, which is on its own no evidence for the official flight path. On the contrary, it shows more of a head-on collision and a penetration of plane parts, no deeper than the opposite wall of the E-ring west wall. And that area was exactly the only area which was probably aided in its collapse, 19 minutes after impact. Thus all eventual plane parts from a head-on collision were covered by debris from the collapse. And could easily have been removed by an insider team much later on, when all of the scene could be handled much better by the right commands from higher up.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f8d2a2e1f7f0.jpg[/atsimg]

C-ring rolling door smoke vent. Probably blasted out from the inside, reached through that small door to the left.

It is important to understand that this "exit" hole fulfilled one purpose only : to enforce the immediate conclusion by the "masses", that you could draw an imaginary line through the 5 "downed" light poles, the internal damage path and that "exit" hole. Thus causing a global mindset that the official southernly angle of attack of 61.5° true magnetic, was thus set in stone.

And it also made it possible to enter the ONI and the accounting offices unseen during the first ordered full retreat from the impact area, caused by a warning that a second plane was nearing Washington DC.
Did they use Flight 93 as an excuse for an (undisturbed by rescue workers) search and retrieve of the objects they so dearly wanted in their possession, or wanted destroyed, like the ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) its super-computer data-tapes and back-up tapes or disks? Or the same objects from the accountants offices computers?


After CIT came with their 13 video-recorded northernly witnesses, who all saw a plane on a totally different last seconds flightpath, the first strong and defensible doubts of the official explanation set in, especially since from now on, everyone who saw these CIT witness videos, knew instantly that those 5 "downed" light poles were an officially endorsed trap to lure citizens into believing the official lies and liars.
And thus the whole picture of a plane impact imprinted on the west wall could also easily been all fake.



Possible right wing imprint on the West wall. Could be a last left bank steering input after the plane approached during a km long flight path all in a slight right bank from over the 8th wing of the Navy Annex, and NoC, towards Route 27. Then changed to a slight left bank to level off with the ground. And the reddish brick wall damage could be from the right jet engine, which tend to break off in a downward direction when the bolts fail, designed that way to not collide with the passenger cabin or the tail fins. Then this engine would topple over when touching the soil, and through its still massive forward momentum part of its directional vectors, been spiraled up and impacting that brick wall a few milliseconds after the front of the wing hit those two columns.
Next question : where is the debris of that engine then propelled to, after it hit but not breached that obviously strong thick brick wall? Why do we not see any of its internal titanium and steel axles and rotors and fan blades laying under that part of the wall? Or its flattened engine core and mantle. Or its very strong and thick wing strut connection.

So, it could just as possible be an imprint from a wall breaching unit. Aided by several small cutting charges.


Anyone interested in the Pentagon attack can directly see for themselves what is basically wrong with the officially depicted last 500 meters flightpath of AA 77.

The official one, based on a clearly falsified last part of the officially offered FDR, depicts a straight line from beside the Sheraton Hotel up to the place of impact at the Pentagon's west wall.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:14 AM
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All eyewitnesses however, interviewed on 9/11 and later by journalists, and also the ones interviewed in December 2001 by the Center for Military History (CMH) group, and some of these (the ANC ones) later on by CIT, described a relatively slow, right bank in the last thousand meters beginning from above the Navy Annex last building, Wing 8's roof center.
And a few important eyewitnesses who were stuck in their cars in the center HOV lane of Route 27 (Washington Boulevard) also described a tiny little bank back to the left when the plane was passing over Route 27.
The Heliport-control-tower air-traffic controller, Sean Boger, also saw a slight last second, left bank correction.

See for that last left bank f.ex. the report from Christine Peterson and Don Mason, and especially from Penny Elgas, who saw the underside of the right and left wing passing over a few cars in front of her (Christine and Don were in the cars that were right under the Route 27-crossing airplane), which would have been impossible if the plane was still in a right bank. In that case Penny would have seen both upper parts of the wings.
This left bank flight correction over Route 27 at the end of a right banked flightpath, started from over the Navy Annex has to be true, otherwise both a nearly level very low flyover, or an impact causing the impact-imprint of a plane fuselage with a slightly tilted right wing photographed during the first 19 minutes before the E-ring wedge 1 collapsed, could both not have happened.

I find especially the witness report from Penny Elgas from a stunning detailed clarity, especially when reviewed in light of the CIT crew its 13 NoC-witness interviews, years later, leading to CIT's first thesis, the North of CITGO flight path.
And Penny's words fits all CIT witness statements to the last word. They all said that in the end the plane impacted.

For CIT's second thesis, the fly-over thesis, she is however a hard nut to crack, since she described on the day of 9/11 already, very vividly a head-on impact.

Just as Steve Riskus is an equally hard nut to crack too.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21014

He also said on 9/11 that he saw an impact. And with what he additionally said lately to the Italian blogger, it is crystal clear now that he in fact saw a head-on to the west wall aiming plane, crossing Route 27 and then the near 90° angled impact, by a NoC flying and then incoming plane.

Have a look at where Penny Elgas car stood in the HOV lane on photos from her and Christine Peterson talking to each other beside their cars, just to the right, of the two trees in front of the Heliport, taken by Steve Riskus within 1 or 2 minutes after impact.
(You can enlarge his following photo Nr.13 easily if you use a Firefox browser. Just hit the combined CTRL (in EU the Strg key) and "+" key, several times, until you can see the faces and all the other fine details. Its a high definition photograph.) There are 3 more Riskus photo's with cars and persons there...
And others from other photographers, also videos...

http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror/P1010013.JPG



Steve Riskus is also a hard NoC witness, and a hard impact witness, see his drawing on a map of his position (red cross) when he saw the plane cross Route 27, and the position of the plane he saw fly over Route 27 (red line), on its way to impact the west wall, head-on :



Click this BIG aerial view image to see the real size of the above photo with Steve's position and the plane crossing Route 27.


In my opinion, Steve draw his red line in a slightly too northernly position. About 50 meter too far north.
Since we now know where the cars stood on Route 27, from Peterson, Mason, Vin Narayanan ("under the plane crossing Route 27") and Elgas ("a few cars behind the plane crossing") and Cissell ("I was about four cars back from where the plane crossed over the highway"). And we know the impact point between columns 13 and 14. And its right wing tip strafed the diesel generator ( says Probst and Mason in the ASCE report), and Sean Boger saw the plane impacting about 60 meter to his towers right.
There are much more witnesses to find who in fact described a NoC flight path, but were all locked by the media to a spot near that first big traffic board, instead of the second one, the one near the Heliport. Or locked to those five bogus "downed" light poles.

The right position for that red line Steve Riskus drew on the photo would be about 50 meters/yards further south/back, and a few of the other witnesses I mentioned, describe vividly how they saw the left wing scrape the concrete of the Heliport, before impacting the west wall.
I think they saw in reality the underside of that left wing hitting that very low small concrete wall from the air-vents, which you can see is damaged in one of the early photos of the fires in the west wall portion of the Pentagon. Some think that air-vent wall was hit by the bottom of the left jet-motor cover.

The below photo montage shows what Steve describes lately to the Italian blogger, on the phone and per email, as ""exactly what he saw when he saw the plane crossing Route 27"", including the huge road sign-board with the green exit signs, and the white HOV lane instructions panel. The 9/11 pair of trees stood further back than those 2 blue arrows indicate. Those 2 new trees were planted years after 9/11/2001.




The above impression from the Italian blogger site has quite a big mistake in it. The two trees on the left side, at 9/11/2001 standing in front of the Heliport pad, here depicted as two blue arrows, were a lot further back, the first tree was 20 meter BEHIND that huge road sign over the road. And not in front of it, as is shown wrongly here.




Thus, we may suppose, that Steve Riskus saw the plane crossing just behind those two 9/11 trees, as is depicted in the above photo, which is much more in synchronization with all other witnesses indications of the last part of the flight path. It flew probably just about 2 meter to the right of the concrete Heliport with its left wing tip, and with that left tip a tad bit tilted down. That's the last correctional slight left bank as described by several 9/11/2001 interviewed eyewitnesses. You can find them in this post and the row of posts of mine below.
And btw, I am very pleased that at last someone interviewed Steve Riskus, and found out what he really saw.

Thanks very much, Italian member Tuttle!
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:18 AM
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This is a better interpretation by Ligon of the real position and flightpath of the plane that Steve Riskus saw flying over Route 27 :



By the way, Frank Probst (ASCE report) was walking on that whitish colored footpath towards the pair of trees, and he said he was near the Heliport (H) when he saw the plane approaching him and the Pentagon. He must have stood somewhere between SP-B and Tree 1.

See for more Steve Riskus info :
Steve Riskus, North Side Flight Path Witness, Interview, images, and flight path drawn.
and
The witnesses of Route 27: Steve Riskus. A definitive NoC witness.

And Penny Elgas her words thus do not fit at all, a southern plane-approach, since we know now where she in reality was situated in the traffic jam in the HOV lane when the plane flew over that lane, just a few tens of meters south of those 2 trees which grew along Route 27, in front of the Heliport.
Since we didn't knew what her exact position was in the first years after 9/11, in those first years she seemed to be a strong witness for a south of CITGO flight path and was used as such.

But it turns out now, that she is an iron-clad witness for a north of CITGO flight path, in light of her photographed parked car position in the HOV lane. And thus also a NoC, near head-on impact, her car stood nearly perpendicular to the impact hole. Just as the car of James R. Cissell....and the car of Vin Narayanan. And Christine Peterson, and Mason.



Impact from a head-on damage path to that first red line, which is the outer internal wall of the E-Ring. All thin or light plane debris would have been crumbled at impact, caught up by the newly installed stronger-than-steel KEVLAR blankets inside the reinforced walls, which were reinforced with thick steel beams and columns, welded together in a checker board fashion. That was an immense strong defense against just that : an incoming plane. Thus only the heavy plane parts would have survived the initial impact, and tumbled into the first wedge-1 its first floor E-ring.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:28 AM
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Q1-References :

Q1-REF-1. 9/11: THE NORTH FLIGHT PATH: Aerodynamically Possible - Witness Compatible.
Q1-REF-2. TECHNICAL SUPPLEMENT TO REF-1.

This 2009 Pilots For 9/11 Truth video and its supplement in which everybody can see for themselves that a NoC flightpath arc between the Navy Annex roof center and the west wall impact spot, with its furthest-out north top spot (called the Sagitta, 'S', for any possible arc), varying from a spot between the Arlington Cemetery boundary masonry wall and a spot above the left side of the north side canopy of the CITGO gas station, is aerodynamically possible, at speeds between 200 to 300 knots, and even 460 knots. And still also comply with the CIT, the Center for Military History (CMH) group, and other eyewitness reports.
The possible right banks calculated by 'Pilots for Truth' and described by all the CIT-interviewed witnesses can vary quite a bit at various speeds and arc radii.
And do not exceed a value of 2 for the G-forces working on the pilots and the airframe.

From a 3° bank at an arc radius of 59,533 feet / 18,146 meter/ca.18 km and a speed of 200 knots.
and a 8° bank at an arc radius of 59,533 feet and a speed of 300 knots,
and a 10° bank at an arc radius of 19,406 feet / 5,915 meter/ca.6 km and a speed of 200 knots,
and a 22° bank at an arc radius of 19,406 feet and a speed of 300 knots.
and a 16° bank at an arc radius of 12,748 feet / 3,886 meter/ca.4 km and a speed of 200 knots,
and a 23° bank at an arc radius of 12,990 feet and a speed of 250 knots,
and a 32° bank at an arc radius of 12,748 feet and a speed of 300 knots.
and a 35° bank at an arc radius of 5,090 feet / 1,551 meter/ca.1.5 km and a speed of 200 knots,
and a 36° bank at an arc radius of 4,974 feet and a speed of 200 knots,
and a 36° bank at an arc radius of 11,010 feet / 3,356 meter/ca.3,3 km and a speed of 300 knots.
and a 43° bank at an arc radius of 12,990 feet and a speed of 250 knots.
and a 17.6° bank at an arc radius of 59,355 feet and a speed of 460 knots.
and a 44° bank at an arc radius of 19,406 feet and a speed of 460 knots.
and a 55.8° bank at an arc radius of 12,748 feet and a speed of 460 knots.
to a 59.6° bank at an arc radius of 11,010 feet and a speed of 460 knots.

530 miles per hour equals 460 knots equals 853 kilometer per hour. That is the official end speed recorded in that bogus FDR released officially by the NTSB.
And that in the thickest air at ground level. Seems unrealistic.
The fan blades from the two turbofan jet motors would be ripped off at that speed in that thick air, caused by extreme vibrations; plus, those turbo fans would need much more time to speed up the whole plane in that thick air, than at an altitude of 30,000 feet in much thinner air.
And not the few seconds the FDR tells us it speedup from a much lower speed.
Someone would perhaps think that they hear turbofans sped up by the pilot at take-off to maximum power, and they are right about that, but they forget that it happens at take-off speed in thick air (160 to 200 miles per hour), and not at 530 miles per hour in the same thick air in a very shallow dive from the Annex to the Pentagon. It's the extra excessive speed which will force the fan blades to fail. At 3x more than take-off speeds, the amount of air molecules hitting the fan blades will be also 3x more, so 3x more resistance has to be overcome by those fan blades spinning at max speed. Which will cause excessive flutter and possible material failure.
See the short example in the Pilotsfor911Truth video in ref. Q1-REF-1, of a model wing tip attached perpendicular to the wing-bottom of a flying laboratory plane, failing in micro seconds when nearing Mach 1 speeds at high altitude.
It first flutters terribly, then fails instantly. It is unsure however, if these fan blades would fail during the amount of seconds of speed-up time to 853 km/hr as is showing in the officially released FDR data.
That 853 km/hr however, exceeds the speed limits for AA 77 set by the manufacturer Boeing, by a factor of 30 %. And these speed limits are in practice found in exactly the kinds of experiments as shown in the aforementioned video part. And that speed limit counts for speeds at cruising altitudes, 30,000 feet / 10 km high, definitely not at ground speeds. I am sure that speed limit would be lowered extensively when ever experimented at ground level flights.

Conclusion : that plane when really flying according to the FDR data, will probably have failed mechanically before it ever reached the Pentagon wall.
Perhaps that was the intention from the beginning? So not one massive spear of 300.000 pounds would hit the wall, but a mist of small particles. And a few heavier engine, wing and fuselage parts.
Let me tell you that I do not buy into that scenario, since all witnesses saw an intact plane hit that wall.
Especially Sean Boger, the Heliport tower experienced air traffic controller, who was 60 meters to the left, beside the impact point in his tower. He described by the way a possible head-on impact.
CIT supposes he hit the floor to protect himself before the actual impact, and I do agree with that, it is a possibility, but not the only one.
Modern human nerve signals research has established that nerve signals need in total about half a second, first to reach the brain, then to get processed and then in reaction, another signal is send back to the muscles to react on the threat to the owner of the brain. The brain however masks that half second reaction time, and let the person think that he instantly reacts on threats, which is thus not true.

The Pilots for Truth provided in their video a compelling demonstration by a very slow flying wide body passenger plane, flying in an about 40° to 60° bank nearly full circle at a clearly slow speed, near stall speed (seen from 15:00 / 19:29 total minutes, in the video). That's a quite steep bank by the way.
But it's also an extremely short arc it's flying. Perhaps a 1000 feet arc. Which means a 2000 feet diameter full circle, i.o.w., that's a 600 meters diameter full circle.

Especially note in this context, that Sean Boger described for the plane he saw, covering the distance between the center of the Navy Annex its ring 8's roof top, and the Pentagon west wall, a much longer amount of seconds then the official explanation wants you to believe. Ten to twelve seconds, he said.
He also described a last slight left bank correction :
Sean Boger : "As he was coming towards me it just seemed like he was tilting the aircraft to his right". That's a tilted left bank.
He was one of the Heliport's control tower's experienced flight controllers on duty in that tower just 60 meters to the left of the impact point on 9/11, and had years of experience in that position observing helicopter landings, much slower b.t.w.than airplane landings.
But he still described a much slower flying plane, covering the distance from above the Navy Annex where he saw it first, coming at him nearly straight to his face, and as he says, impacting the west wall after about 10 to 12 seconds observed flight.
To our eyes, a car driving by at speeds between 200 and 250 km/hr will be described by us as really fast.
In our life-time we do not experience many more objects reasonably near to us (a few hundred meters), at higher speeds.
Only airplanes landing and taking off at airports.





You must really pay attention to this video in Q1-REF-1, to pick up a very important piece of information at the 15:45 to the 15:52 minutes mark.
The narrator says there, that "it is interesting to note that (Roosevelt) Roberts statement lines up perfectly with runway 15 at DCA" (Reagan National Airport).

I made a drawing on a map a few years ago, which showed a possible flight path over the Pentagon roofs towards Runway 15 at Reagan National Airport. But it would land then against regulations, with the wind in the back, a tail-wind. While all other planes were instructed that day to land on the southern end of runway 15, with the wind on the nose, a head-wind.
When you place Roosevelt Roberts on that T-shaped white building at the eastern corner of the South Wall, as CIT believes he was, then he could have described a fly-over plane passing along the boundary of the furthest eastern part of South Parking.



Pentagon + a plane path NoC + CIT's and other witnesses placed on the map, which also indicated a NoC flight path.


When you however look at the few yellow points depicted for that flightpath in the Pilots for Truth video (why not show an arc line, like in all other examples from that video?), it seems that any plane following that strong curved path would have needed to fly all the way from the CITGO gas station up to the west wall and over the Pentagon's roofs and shortly before landing on runway 15 from DCA, in quite a steep bank angle at even a slow speed.
And none of the eyewitnesses saw such a steep bank. They all described a smooth light right bank.

Here is a recent detailed map of the Pentagon area :

http://www.mapygon.com/united-states/distr...n/the-pentagon/

I drew three lines on that above map. See the next, altered by me, picture below.
The yellow line confirms with all the CIT witnesses.
The orange line confirms with the CIT fly-over theory, and let the plane land on runway 15, but with the wind in the back, and thus against all normal regulations, especially on that day.
The wind came from the northwest that day.
The red line confirms with the CIT fly-over, and let's the plane fit in with the normal northernly River Approach air lane over the Potomac River alongside the eastern side of Reagan National Airport. It then had to turn around half circle and land on runway 15 against the wind, which was the prevailing mode of approach on 9/11.
In this light it is still interesting to know that 1 minute after the official impact time of 09:38 AM, a 757 landed on Reagan Int. Airport, with a tail number which only differed one digit from AA 77's tail number of N644AA, it had tail number N645. But that number was owned by another air carrier, if I remember that right.
I thought it belonged to a carrier firm owned by Warren Buffet.



Pentagon big-areal-photo of two possible flight paths from the Navy Annex to Runway 15 at DCA.
Yellow =observed by many witnesses,
Orange = possibly observed by Roosevelt Roberts and landing against regulation on the northern tip of the runway,
Red = possible flight path observed by Roosevelt Roberts towards southern end of Runway 15 following flight controller directions as in use on 9/11. Into the normal River Approach air lane over the Potomac River, to not enter restricted flight areas over the White House and others.


In that light, also view the remarks about Roosevelt Roberts seeing a plane flying over the South parking lot, from the 14:39 mark in the Pilots for Truth video in ref. Q1-REF-1.
In my opinion that last piece of the depicted orange arc in that PfT-video lays over the boundary of the far eastern site of the southern parking lot.
And in my opinion Roosevelt could have just as easily described a plane flying in his perspective, low from the Annex roof to a NoC direction and then to the west wall, where he lost sight of it shortly after it crossed Route 27, because the corner of the south wall blocked his line of sight (see his field of view, in between the two thin red lines). That's why he saw no impact, only a smoke column rising over the west wall.



Possible Angle of view of Mr Roosevelt Roberts when seeing an incoming plane. Wide enough angle of view to eventually see either a SoC or a NoC flight path, which are only from about 200 to 50 meters spaced apart, so it is very difficult to describe as a North- or a South- of CITGO gas station flight path by Mr Roberts. He did describe his sighting of a plane as "flying just over the South Parking's lamp posts". That's one possible interpretation of what he would have seen if he had observed the plane when looking to his right. But also if he had observed a plane looking to his left. In both cases the plane would for him have seemed to fly over the South Parking Lot, however over opposite boundaries. One possibility coming towards him from the Navy Annex, the other possibility flying away from him after it crossed over the Pentagon roofs and skimmed over the light poles at the eastern boundary part of South Parking.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:38 AM
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According to the CIT crew, as I understand by now, they think what Roosevelt described in his first interview with the Center for Military History (CMH) group and later to the CIT crew in two telephone interviews, that he saw a roof crossing, outgoing, fly-over plane, flying on a track leading it over the far eastern boundary of the South Parking Lot and just over the light poles there, possibly on its way to a northernly or a southernly approach to runway 15 of Reagan National Airport, or even on a far further course to another airport somewhere near Washington.
They also think that he stood far further than I placed him, namely near the far eastern corner of the Pentagon's South wall, where also a smaller loading dock is situated, and they seem to think that this is also called Eastern Docks.
I would like to see some hard evidence that that is a viable description of where he stood, because then I have to review my opinion on Roosevelt's 3 interviews.

Now, I still think he stood in the open space between the Western Docks and the Eastern Docks as depicted in my above drawing. And described an incoming plane which he started to see coming from the Navy Annex direction.
Which I derive from about a hundred times carefully listening to all his recorded interviews. I have filled an extensive thread on ATS with my posts, about it.

I guess I'll have to search for it, since you all want links...and it contains typed out lists of the three audio interviews with Roberts. And the three audio file links.
And quite some debate with the CIT crew, who then, could not convince me that Roberts was a viable witness for a fly-over.
Perhaps you guys have gathered some more, convincing additional info about the Roberts account.

The position I place him in, still makes it possible for him to also describe an outgoing fly-over plane, so until we ever get a fourth chance to get an explanation from Roosevelt, I call it an undecided case.
And even when he stood near that far eastern end of the South Wall, he could still have seen the incoming plane, see my green line in the above map, up till the first "C" of the words "Christine Peterson car".
And he did not describe the plane's flight path AFTER he heard an explosion. That description from him regarded the explosion in New York when they showed video of the second plane impacting the WTC North Tower on the TV he was watching when he sat inside the loading bay area.


So, let's see how the parking lots names are mentioned in several official sources. Roberts would have named the lots according to everyday usage at the Pentagon of these lots.
Clockwise from its northern point, the Pentagon’s five facades are the Mall Terrace Entrance facade, the River Terrace Entrance facade, the Concourse Entrance (or Metro Station) facade, the South Parking Entrance facade, and the Heliport facade.

This is The Pentagon Parking Facilities map from the official Pentagon website as of 2011 (see below). As you can see, the South parking covers quite some space to the east also, thus Roosevelt Roberts could have described the plane he saw, flying over the west part, but also over the east part coming from over the roofs, while on its way to land on the northern end of runway 15 from Washington International Airport, a.k.a. Reagan National Airport.
Note that on 9/11 the wind was blowing from the northwest to the southeast, and all landing planes on the airport were directed by the air traffic controllers to land on the other, southern end of that runway, as usual against the wind, to take advantage of the extra wing-lift and additional deceleration force.
Thus my red-colored fly-over flightpath would best fit the circumstances and events on 9/11, when you are convinced of CIT's fly-over thesis.

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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:44 AM
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QUESTION 2 : If the plane continued its path over the Pentagon's west wing roofs and disappeared in the distance, flying through the smoke column of an inward directed explosion , how were the resulting inward wall imprints matching an incoming 757 flight profile, in such a scenario, falsified ?

ANSWER : Let's all try to answer that one with any logical explanation which would be widely accepted as an acceptable one.

All the photographs from the first 19 minutes up till 09:57 AM, when the partial collapse took place, show heavy damage caused by an inward source.
Thus, in case of CIT's fly-over, eventual falsified imprints must have been caused by another form of incoming material than a 90 ton Boeing 757, or caused by wall-breaching detonation-cords or, the then just available, quite flat wall-breaching units, glued or screwed on the outside of the west wall, before any plane reached that wall's perimeter. These would have been noticed by still present reconstruction personnel and security guards on their rounds, when not perfectly camouflaged.

Thus we have to accept, following the most logical scenario, another form of wall-breaching, already build inside the outer west wall during construction. That means at least a few of the reconstruction contractor's firm supervisors must have been in with the 9/11 scenario, or they would have found such an anomaly inside their steel beams and Kevlar netting reinforced new walls, during their normal inspections.
Thus, most likely, only night time adjustments to the Pentagon's west wall could have been executed by any kind of pre-9/11 terrorists.
It should be noted that shortly after 9/11, the British based main contractor for the Pentagon's reconstruction, closed all its offices in the USA and all its personnel went back to England.
So they could not easily be interrogated?

Q2-References :

Q2-REF-1. Interview by Rob Balsamo from pilotsfor911truth.org, with Flight Data Recorder expert Dennis Cimino about flight AA77.

This is the most false-flag revealing piece of flight 77 information I have seen for years, and should get the attention it needs in all 9/11 truth seeking circles, and far outside of them, especially offered to the US politicians, who we expect to work for the US and global populace. And to all other countries' politicians.

The most striking revelation to me was at first the remarks of Dennis Cimino that he found no data at all in the raw data file or the CVS file from the NTSB FOIA requested FDR files, that indicated which flight number and air carrier that FDR belonged to, which to him was the first thing he noticed when he went over the FDR files with his very experienced eyes. Every FDR he examined in his life, had these markers all over its CVS and FDR raw data file. This one, not a single one....

The next groundbreaking news from his side was the fact that he found more than 35 moments in the raw data file, that electrical power was shut off to the device, and it had to re-initialize again 35 times. These glaring impossibilities had to have been reflected in the CVS file and thus also in the NTSB-animation shipped by the NTSB in the same FOIA requested package. The animation should have shown 35 instances where the plane instantly changed its speed, altitude and position in the air.
It however did not ONE time.

Nothing whatsoever could be found in that CVS file, reflecting 35 re-initializations of the black box power to the solid state memory block. Or any reaction by the "pilots" on the warning signs and noises that accompany everyone of such impossible 35 in-flight events.

This made Dennis Cimino remark in the interview, that this could have only happened if this FDR was from a workbench-fit black box in a laboratory, fed with artificial data during a long time, weeks or months, and that box could thus not belong to the 9/11 AA 77 attack airplane.


[Q2-REF-2. The ASCE's Pentagon Building Performance Report, Arrogant Deception - Or an Attempt to Expose a Cover-up?

QUOTE
Abstract :
This article looks at The Pentagon Building Performance Report (January 2003) by the American Society of Civil Engineers.
The key conclusion reached is that the Report fails in its attempt to show that the structural damage caused to the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001 was caused by a crash by a Boeing 757 aircraft. The main purpose of the Report seems therefore to be to back the official, untruthful story about the events of 9/11. However, part of the inconsistencies are so glaring that an intention of sabotaging the said main purpose cannot be excluded.


Q2-REF-3. Physics911 website : The Missing Wings.
The following quote lists a few angles which do not seem to cope with the ASCE report, and the final speed at impact is also too high, but it offers a compelling reasoning part of this essay for another angle of attack than the official 42° to 45° to the west wall (61.5° true North); or an entirely other plane; or a flyover :

QUOTE
If a Boeing 757 struck the Pentagon in the manner described in the ASCE report, the port wing struck a column just to the left of the presumed engine-hole. Since the column did not fail, the wing must have.
Here is why: The aircraft came in at 45 degrees to the wall of Wedge One and the port wing of a Boeing 757 is swept back at an angle of 29 degrees. Thus the angle made by the wing with the support column would have been 45 + 29 = 74 degrees at the moment of impact. Clearly, no other portion of the wing could have been in contact with the Pentagon wall at that moment and the entire weight of the wing, still traveling at 530 miles per hour, would have produced a bending force that was entirely concentrated on the point of contact of the wing with the support column. This would have snapped all three spars instantly. The outboard portion of the wing would then have pivoted into the wall of the building, slamming into it but unable to penetrate it, because now the momentum of the wing, instead of being concentrated at one point, would have been distributed along the length of its contact with the building’s wall.

We can declare that this did not happen, since neither the port wing nor any significant portion of it was found outside the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 02:57 AM
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The problems with gathering substantial arguments for either a case of a flyover, or a case of a head-on impact, are essentially the same :

There is, up till now, not much further to gather, as evidence in case of a fly-over, which will convince as many readers and/or viewers, as the CIT-north of CITGO witness-interviews have done.
Those CIT-interviews have convinced nearly all of the visitors of truth seeking community websites that at least the last 10 seconds-part of the officially released AA 77 FDR is bogus. And that the south of CITGO officially pushed flight path is a proven lie by now.
But only a tiny part of those same visitors seem to have faith in the CIT fly-over thesis.

It's just as problematic to convince crowds of readers of a case which offers evidence of a nearly 90° angle of impact of a plane on the Pentagon west wall, instead of the official sharp angle of attack promoted by the federal government.
And such a head-on impacting plane had to come from a North of CITGO gas station direction, when you believe the CIT interviewed eyewitnesses, as I for instant firmly do believe them.
With a, not far above stall-, slow speed; and on a slightly right banked flightpath which was only in the last 1 second changed to a slight left bank.
To level the plane off with the lawn in front of the west wall so it could pass over the lamp poles along Route 27, and the big road directional sign half way across, Route 27 about 30 meters or so in front of those two trees in front of the Heliport landing pad.

And thus its left wing tip could pass over the grass just to the right of the white squared concrete helicopter landing pad. And its right wing tip could strike the front roof of the generator trailer and give that trailer such a heavy push, that it pivoted around its wheels, hit something behind it and bounced back through the fence, which caused part of the fence to be ripped down, including two fence poles holding up that part of the wired fence.
Try that out yourself by placing a dinky-toy model of a generator trailer in front of another heavy object behind it, and hit the left top with a wooden ruler, acting as a right wing tip. Or snap your index finger at it.
The object has to be standing behind the front left part of the model trailer, only then will it bounce back with its right, back end, through an imaginary fence with aluminum alloy poles.
As you can see on a satellite picture from the day before 9/11, there were lots of large objects near that trailer in that northwest corner of the fenced off area in front of the renovated wedge in the Pentagon's west wall. See refs Q2-REF-2 and Q2-REF-2.

We have only 19 minutes of video and photographic evidence of the surface of the still standing portion of the west wall, which 19 minutes after impact collapsed. And there is no report I know of, which describes what has been found in the month after, in that collapsed Pentagon wedge portion's rubble pile. The month that all the rubble has been removed and the whole building was cleaned up, and then after 3 October 2001 the engineers of the ASCE report were allowed in.
Plenty of time to let all eventual evidence of another 9/11 Pentagon attack scenario disappear.

Like f.ex. no main plane parts in that wedge, at all, which would fortify the fly-over thesis tremendously.
Or, plane parts found in places which would indicate that a plane struck head-on, like cockpit remains and the main longitudinal fuselage beam remains. Or the nose wheel construction. Its ultra-strong massive leg would at least partially have remained somewhere on a head-on path trajectory.


I have the impression that too many truth-seekers seem not to fully comprehend the inevitable conclusions from a now rock-solid proven NoC flightpath.
Which does not conclude yet firmly, either into an impact, or a fly-over.
Both are however still debatable.

Just the fact that more than 20 eyewitnesses, including the 13 interviewed by CIT, do strongly prove a north of CITGO gas station flightpath as followed by the attack plane and seen by all these witnesses, does prove that the US Administrations lied and are still lying.
As if these truth seekers don't want to see the cruel consequences when they accept the NoC flightpath after an intuitively acceptance of the truthfulness of the recorded witness words in the CIT videos.
Especially sergeant Lagasse's words, that he bet his life on the fact that he saw the plane pass to the north of the CITGO's northern roof, between the Arlington Cemetery boundary stone wall and fence, and the CITGO.
And you certainly can't book Lagasse as a firm defender of 9/11 truth.
On the contrary, he was active in the first years on several online forums, to defend the official explanations. He never ever realized that he himself was one of the most convincing witnesses to the contrary of the official explanations in the later CIT interview at the CITGO gas station, a few years later.



This blue colored by me, NoC flight path does fit the Paik + Morin CIT interviews, and does fit a NoC flight path + all its CIT and other shown witnesses.
Morin explained that he went back to his car to get his standard spectacles, since he had only his sunglasses on, and stepped just a few steps outside Annex building 5, just a few meters from that thin light connection corridor between Annex wings 4 and 5 you see in the above picture with the blue NoC flight path line drawn in by me, and then he heard the rumble of a nearing low flying airplane, cascade between the walls of buildings 4 and 5, and then the fuselage of the plane passed over his head.
The officially endorsed SoC flight path is drawn in by me in yellow, and it does not fit all witnesses, only perhaps the testimony of Mr Paik at his garage.
Sean Boger said that he saw the plane passing just over that "Y" formed antenna situated in the center of the top of the Wing 8 roof.


And note also the real positions of Penny Elgas and Christine Peterson's cars in the HOV lane, photographed just after impact, stopped just before the two trees in front of the helicopter landing pad. We even have a Steve Riskus photograph where we see them talk to each other, in front of the burning Pentagon and beside their cars. I posted that in the 911 forum threads at ATS.
I have inserted it already above, and also the -real- witness report by James R. Cissell, who stood only a few cars (4) behind Christine Peterson.

Which proves with no doubt that the plane flew in front of them (Penny Elgas, James R. Cissell) or over their car (Christine Peterson, Vin and Don Mason), as they said to journalists in their 11 September 2001 newspaper interviews, thus certainly not at the official far back position just over the underpass of Columbia Pike to the South parking lot, as all the official, SoC defenders did and still do place them. They all stood very near the pair of trees in front of the Heliport landing pad with their cars.




The green line is the real NoC flight path up to the west wall, the blue line was the false SoC official flight path with the 5 downed light poles in it, which downing is now proven to be impossible by the attack plane, since we have more than 20 eyewitnesses who saw a NoC path, and not one real reliable and re-interviewed SoC witness. When re-interviewed, all former SoC witnesses turn out to be not in a position to have seen an impact at all, or strongly suspected to be hear sayers, or pure liars.
Or, even better for true-history research, they turn out to be the opposite of SoC witnesses, in fact they saw a NoC approach and impact. For example this man, James R. Cissell :
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/300606flight77.htm

QUOTE
James R. Cissell contacted us to express his anger at the newspaper for taking his comments completely out of context.

"The Cincinnati Post article, which you refer, angered me greatly after reading it. It is almost completely fiction based loosely on an interview I did with a Cincinnati Post reporter Kimball Perry who called me in response to an on air phone report that I did for Channel 12 in Cincinnati."

Cissell relates what he actually told the reporter.

"The reporter took extreme creative license not only with the title but also with the story as a whole. Why he felt the need to sensationalize anything that happened on September 11 is beyond me. My words to the reporter were,"I was about four cars back from where the plane crossed over the highway. That it happened so quickly I didn't even see what airline it was from. However, I was so close to the plane when it went past that had it been sitting on a runway, I could have seen the faces of passengers peering out."
-- snip --
Regarding the speculation that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon and alternate explanations behind the event, Cissell is not certain that the plane was as large as a 757, but at least as large as a 727.

"As far as the size of the plane, it happened very quickly. What I can say is that it was a passenger plane at least as big as a 727 maybe bigger. From the time I heard it over my left shoulder and turned to see it I had one thought, 'he's off course'; I was used to seeing planes fly along the Potomac on the other side of the Pentagon to land at national airport just a mile or two away. My next thought wasn't a thought, it was the realization of what was happening and that happened moments or even a moment before the plane struck."

"Later I found it remarkable that someone even saw what airline it was from. The plane was coming from left and behind of me - I guess if you were on the other side of the highway and facing the plane as it came in you would have had a lot more time to react," said Cissell.

These comments cloud the accuracy of the eyewitness reports of people who claimed to have seen clear markings which would have irrefutably identified the aircraft, such as Christine Peterson, who claimed that the plane was "so close that I could read the numbers under the wing."

Did Peterson really say this or was she also taken out of context?

Why would reporters need to sensationalize one of the biggest events in world history? Was its scope not gargantuan enough?

Cissell disagrees with some aspects of how the official version of events describes the approach of the aircraft.

"Looking at the trajectories in the diagrams they have online seems off to me. I remember the plane coming in more directly at the side of the building than at an angle," said Cissell.

Cissell makes it clear that speculation that the object was a missile or that there was no plane at all is off base.

"With regards to conspiracies in general, I think the conspiracy people need to be focusing on the one where Bush and his administration leveraged the tragedy of 911 to enter a war for money and oil that cost the lives of who knows how many civilians, a couple thousand soldiers and undid 30 years of progress in a region that was slowly healing itself."
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:04 AM
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See for lots of info and drawings this critique of :
The ASCE's Pentagon Building Performance Report.
Arrogant Deception - Or an Attempt to Expose a Cover-up?
By Sami Yli-Karjanmaa.
First published Sept. 05, 2004, last updated 04/13/07.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/sy-k/pentagon/asce_...sumakaavio%2031

When you also consider the words of Frank Probst engraved in (and impossible to retract anymore) the ASCE's Pentagon Building Performance Report's pages 12 and 13, I hope you start to realize that his words are the strongest indication that the attack plane did in reality approach him from a north of CITGO flightpath, (and make it impossible to have approached Frank Probst from the officially promoted southwestern flightpath).



Frank Probst stood under a NoC-flight path and witnessed the plane passing over him at a spot about where the blue line starts in the left side of the drawing, depicting the real, NoC flight path.
And thus not that position drawn with a yellow cross under a now proven fictional SoC flight path.


B.t..w, Frank Probst left his trailer at about 09:30, and he walked already northwards on that sidewalk running along Route 27, with the whole grass lawn between him and the west wall, and he had already neared the Heliport landing pad, as he said himself.

And you can even calculate the impact angle from his words, when you compare the 10 September 2001 aerial photographs on the Internet which show the exact position of the 750 kW diesel powered generator trailer (See photo in Q2-REF-2) :

QUOTE
As he approached the heliport (figure 3.2) he noticed a plane flying low over the Annex and heading right for him. According to the Arlington County after-action report (Arlington County, 2002), this occurred at 9:38 a.m. The aircraft pulled up ( LT: it had to, to come out of a downward dive from the much higher Annex roof ), seemingly aiming for the first floor of the building, and leveled off. ( LT: this expression means it made that last correction to come out of the long right bank, by switching to a slight left bank in front of Route 27 to come horizontal again and pass just over the traffic sign and all the lamp-poles near the two trees. Penny Elgas and Sean Boger both saw the same last slight left banking to get it leveled off again. ).
Probst hit the ground and observed the right wing tip pass through the portable 750 kW generator that provides backup power to Wedge 1.
( LT: this is still possible with a head-on (90°) fuselage impact at column 13 or 14 in the west wall. It also fits the visible flat damage to the diesel store roof of the trailer.
The right engine took out the chain-link fence and posts surrounding the generator.
( LT: This is impossible with any angle of attack above 31°. This remark thus is probably introduced by the end-editor of the ASCE report, or by Probst himself, to protect his job/pension and carefully follow the official explanations. Or, the impact of the wing-tip at the trailers upper front roof part was so heavy, that the trailer turned around its own axis, its front end bounced back from a heavy object just behind it, and its left-side back end thus hit the fence and made that damage to the fence and smashed the two fence-poles in the center of that damage down. Or the wooden stair which went up to the maintenance-room door at the back of the trailer spinned around or pivoted towards the fence and ripped it down. Or one of the first Pentagon police cars on the scene drove through the fence to facilitate access for the firemen to the diesel fuel fire. Or one of the two first yellow firetrucks did the same.
Fill in at will, your proposal for another possible reason, beside an impossible and thus excluded scenario of AA 77 its right jet engine hitting that fence.
)
The left engine struck an external steam vault before the fuselage entered the building. As the fireball from the crash moved toward him, Probst ran toward the South Parking Lot and recalls falling down twice.
( LT: this means that Frank Probst walked somewhere near the southwest corner of the concrete from the heliport pad, the nearest corner to Route 27, or , as he said in another interview, on that footpath along the lawn, just aside of Route 27 where the wounded were later helped. B.t.w., that's the most logical path to be followed by him on his way to the North parking lot. If he would have been any nearer, he would have either been hit by the plane or totally incinerated by the heat of the following explosion. See Q2-REF-2. )
Fine pieces of wing debris floated down about him.The diesel fuel for the portable generator ignited while he was running. ( LT: this means that he could not have been positioned any nearer than the fenced off area, since that area was a pile of burning wreckage from the trailer and other parts there, after impact, as can be seen in many photos. In other words, he did not walk along the west wall, but took the sidewalk path near the road, or went over the grassy lawn between the fence and that sidewalk, on his initial way towards his meeting on the north parking lot. )
He noted only fire and smoke within the building at the point of impact.
Security personnel herded him and others to the south, and he did not witness the subsequent partial collapse of the building.


Don Mason, 62, is a communications specialist who retired from the United States Air Force after 25 years of service. He has worked for the Pentagon Renovation Program Office on information
management and telecommunications since 1996. At the time of the crash he was stopped in traffic west of the building.
The plane approached low, flying directly over him ( LT: that must mean that he was very near standing still to Christine Peterson, who also saw the plane flying over her car, which Penny Elgas witnessed from a few cars back. Thus it must be possible to pinpoint Don's car in the four photos we have from Penny and Christine and their cars in the HOV lane, just after the impact. ) and possibly clipping the antenna of the vehicle immediately behind him ( LT: he's clearly exaggerating here, such an impossible low flying plane would have clipped many more light poles than the government want us to believe. And a road sign too. And its huge, low hanging two jet engines would have impacted cars in the HOV lane and the HOV lane's concrete divider side bars. ) and struck three light poles between him and the building. ( LT: When he saw a NoC incoming attack plane, he is clearly lying again, that plane could not have downed any of those 5 downed poles. ) He saw his colleague Frank Probst directly in the plane’s path, and he witnessed a small explosion as the portable generator was struck by the right wing.The aircraft struck the building between the heliport fire station and the generator, its left wing slightly lower than its right wing. ( LT: that's a slight left bank orientation ). As the plane entered the building, he recalled seeing the tail of the plane. The fireball that erupted upon the plane’s impact rose above the structure. Mason then noticed flames coming from the windows to the left of the point of impact ( LT: that must have been the charges going off inside the building, that suggested a SoC damage path all the way to that bogus "exit" hole in the third ring, the C-Ring wall, photographed from inside that A-E Drive later on. ) and observed small pieces of the facade falling to the ground. Law enforcement personnel moved Mason’s vehicle and other traffic on, and he did not witness the subsequent partial collapse of the building.
-snip- According to the Arlington County after-action report, this (collapse) occurred at 9:57 a.m., or 19 minutes after impact.




I am still in doubt what exactly happened after AA 77 reached the last 200 meters in front of the Pentagon's west wall. Did it impact, or fly-over? We desperately are in need of more input.
I however still see more witness indications, registered right on the day of 9/11, of an impact, contrary to a fly-over. Like the first photographs, the first eyewitness interviews, the first videos.

I however have one solution that comes to my mind if I am asked to come up with a solution for the circa 3 seconds that a plane would need to pass over the Pentagon's roofs, and slip into a logical looking landing course to Reagan National (DCA).

The plane, and the roofs of the Pentagon, would have eye-blinding devices installed on them.
Like those light grenades (stun grenades) used by special police or military forces.

The eye blinding effect for a person looking straight into the small field of exposure would have an after-effect of a few seconds, and after that the effects of the huge explosion in front of the west wall plus its accompanying smoke column would attract all further attention, and enforce in that witness the notion that the intense light overload from the light "grenades" were an effect from the explosion.

In effect, anyone looking in the direction of the roof skimming airplane would be temporarily blinded in that small specific region of their full viewing field, where the light emitting plane would exist.
They would not see nor remember a plane, but only a flash effect, coupled immediately by the brain to the huge explosion's after-effects. The intensity of that flash would need to be calculated in such a manner of exposure and intensity, that it would erase the eye-imprint of a plane in the overall view of those persons looking in the direction of that plane, but not capable of totally blinding any drivers in the cars on the highways surrounding the Pentagon.
Otherwise we would have seen quite a lot of accidents on those highways.
This is in fact a small but very significant and convincing addition to CIT's flash-bang theory, but they only thought that the explosion effects would be enough to lead the attention away from any fly-over plane eye witnesses.
Which I have never believed in. And that's why I have searched for other eventually used side effects to mask the plane's appearance in the sky for those crucial next few seconds.

I even thought of exterior, plane-skin cloaking techniques, already invented by the Russians around the time of 2001, and there would be enough room in a prepped up 757-200 to install additional electrical power plants like the one already present in every tail unit of commercial planes. The Russian system asked for quite some Kilowatts to function for about 3 to max 5 seconds at that time (2001) on the skin of one of their jet fighters, but there's much more room in a 757 for additional power plants to cover the electrical needs for that much bigger exterior.

However, a system of modified light "stun grenades" spaced over the skin of a fake AA 77 would be the most logical solution, and the cheapest. Even so cheap, that I wonder why the Americans, Russians and the Chinese did not much earlier thought of, and implemented such a system on tanks, vehicles and planes. A few seconds out of enemy eye-sight can decide the outcome of many ground or air combats, even when we take the use of additional ground or air radar in account.
Most soldiers will have still the tendency to have more faith in their eyesight than a screen for the first few seconds that they follow a freshly arrived enemy vehicle in their battle zone view.
And the first tank that fires, with the nowadays accomplished fire power and accuracy, will win the battle.
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Paul
post Feb 15 2011, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE (LaBTop @ Feb 15 2011, 06:27 PM) *
The problems with gathering substantial arguments for either a case of a flyover, or a case of a head-on impact, are essentially the same :

There is, up till now, not much further to gather, as evidence in case of a fly-over, which will convince as many readers and/or viewers, as the CIT-north of CITGO witness-interviews have done.
Those CIT-interviews have convinced nearly all of the visitors of truth seeking community websites that at least the last 10 seconds-part of the officially released AA 77 FDR is bogus. And that the south of CITGO officially pushed flight path is a proven lie by now.
But only a tiny part of those same visitors seem to have faith in the CIT fly-over thesis.

It's just as problematic to convince crowds of readers of a case which offers evidence of a nearly 90° angle of impact of a plane on the Pentagon west wall, instead of the official sharp angle of attack promoted by the federal government.
And such a head-on impacting plane had to come from a North of CITGO gas station direction, when you believe the CIT interviewed eyewitnesses, as I for instant firmly do believe them.
With a, not far above stall-, slow speed; and on a slightly right banked flightpath which was only in the last 1 second changed to a slight left bank.
To level the plane off with the lawn in front of the west wall so it could pass over the lamp poles along Route 27, and the big road directional sign half way across, Route 27 about 30 meters or so in front of those two trees in front of the Heliport landing pad.

And thus its left wing tip could pass over the grass just to the right of the white squared concrete helicopter landing pad. And its right wing tip could strike the front roof of the generator trailer and give that trailer such a heavy push, that it pivoted around its wheels, hit something behind it and bounced back through the fence, which caused part of the fence to be ripped down, including two fence poles holding up that part of the wired fence.
Try that out yourself by placing a dinky-toy model of a generator trailer in front of another heavy object behind it, and hit the left top with a wooden ruler, acting as a right wing tip. Or snap your index finger at it.
The object has to be standing behind the front left part of the model trailer, only then will it bounce back with its right, back end, through an imaginary fence with aluminum alloy poles.
As you can see on a satellite picture from the day before 9/11, there were lots of large objects near that trailer in that northwest corner of the fenced off area in front of the renovated wedge in the Pentagon's west wall. See refs Q2-REF-2 and Q2-REF-2.

We have only 19 minutes of video and photographic evidence of the surface of the still standing portion of the west wall, which 19 minutes after impact collapsed. And there is no report I know of, which describes what has been found in the month after, in that collapsed Pentagon wedge portion's rubble pile. The month that all the rubble has been removed and the whole building was cleaned up, and then after 3 October 2001 the engineers of the ASCE report were allowed in.
Plenty of time to let all eventual evidence of another 9/11 Pentagon attack scenario disappear.

Like f.ex. no main plane parts in that wedge, at all, which would fortify the fly-over thesis tremendously.
Or, plane parts found in places which would indicate that a plane struck head-on, like cockpit remains and the main longitudinal fuselage beam remains. Or the nose wheel construction. Its ultra-strong massive leg would at least partially have remained somewhere on a head-on path trajectory.


I have the impression that too many truth-seekers seem not to fully comprehend the inevitable conclusions from a now rock-solid proven NoC flightpath.
Which does not conclude yet firmly, either into an impact, or a fly-over.
Both are however still debatable.

Just the fact that more than 20 eyewitnesses, including the 13 interviewed by CIT, do strongly prove a north of CITGO gas station flightpath as followed by the attack plane and seen by all these witnesses, does prove that the US Administrations lied and are still lying.
As if these truth seekers don't want to see the cruel consequences when they accept the NoC flightpath after an intuitively acceptance of the truthfulness of the recorded witness words in the CIT videos.
Especially sergeant Lagasse's words, that he bet his life on the fact that he saw the plane pass to the north of the CITGO's northern roof, between the Arlington Cemetery boundary stone wall and fence, and the CITGO.
And you certainly can't book Lagasse as a firm defender of 9/11 truth.
On the contrary, he was active in the first years on several online forums, to defend the official explanations. He never ever realized that he himself was one of the most convincing witnesses to the contrary of the official explanations in the later CIT interview at the CITGO gas station, a few years later.



This blue colored by me, NoC flight path does fit the Paik + Morin CIT interviews, and does fit a NoC flight path + all its CIT and other shown witnesses.
Morin explained that he went back to his car to get his standard spectacles, since he had only his sunglasses on, and stepped just a few steps outside Annex building 5, just a few meters from that thin light connection corridor between Annex wings 4 and 5 you see in the above picture with the blue NoC flight path line drawn in by me, and then he heard the rumble of a nearing low flying airplane, cascade between the walls of buildings 4 and 5, and then the fuselage of the plane passed over his head.
The officially endorsed SoC flight path is drawn in by me in yellow, and it does not fit all witnesses, only perhaps the testimony of Mr Paik at his garage.
Sean Boger said that he saw the plane passing just over that "Y" formed antenna situated in the center of the top of the Wing 8 roof.


And note also the real positions of Penny Elgas and Christine Peterson's cars in the HOV lane, photographed just after impact, stopped just before the two trees in front of the helicopter landing pad. We even have a Steve Riskus photograph where we see them talk to each other, in front of the burning Pentagon and beside their cars. I posted that in the 911 forum threads at ATS.
I have inserted it already above, and also the -real- witness report by James R. Cissell, who stood only a few cars (4) behind Christine Peterson.

Which proves with no doubt that the plane flew in front of them (Penny Elgas, James R. Cissell) or over their car (Christine Peterson, Vin and Don Mason), as they said to journalists in their 11 September 2001 newspaper interviews, thus certainly not at the official far back position just over the underpass of Columbia Pike to the South parking lot, as all the official, SoC defenders did and still do place them. They all stood very near the pair of trees in front of the Heliport landing pad with their cars.




The green line is the real NoC flight path up to the west wall, the blue line was the false SoC official flight path with the 5 downed light poles in it, which downing is now proven to be impossible by the attack plane, since we have more than 20 eyewitnesses who saw a NoC path, and not one real reliable and re-interviewed SoC witness. When re-interviewed, all former SoC witnesses turn out to be not in a position to have seen an impact at all, or strongly suspected to be hear sayers, or pure liars.
Or, even better for true-history research, they turn out to be the opposite of SoC witnesses, in fact they saw a NoC approach and impact. For example this man, James R. Cissell :
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/300606flight77.htm


LaBTop are you one of the core members if so which one are you?
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:13 AM
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CONCLUSIONS

A. Thus, any proven possible north of the CITGO gas-station flown flightpath by the 9/11 Pentagon attack plane, at different speeds and banks, logically means that :

1. The light poles were staged.
2. The generator trailer's roof-damage is still possible, but the hole in the fence was staged, or not caused by a jet engine.
3. The internal damage was fully staged, or at least the longest internal part, to the north side of the expansion joint where part of Wedge 1 collapsed, leading to that bogus "exit" hole in the AE-Drive.
4. All the DNA collections were staged.
Especially this paints a grim picture of a gruesome governmental- and military leadership. The Mafia bleaks compared to the in-humans who planned events like September 11.
The German NAZI party followed the same principles, just as the Russian hardliner communists.
Since these DNA remains will most probably belong to these published people, who must have been murdered on 9/11 or very soon after, and part of their remains mingled up to be spread out at the crime scene by compliant conspirators.
5. All military and non-military Pentagon personnel were murdered too, by means of planted explosives, and not by Middle-Eastern terrorists, but by "patriotic American leadership", who think in terms of collateral damage which in their minds has to be accepted, when compared to a greater "American" endgame.
"Their" greater goal, not that of the vast majority of honest Americans and its majority of honest military personnel.
6. And thus all WTC victims, civilians and rescuers alike, were murdered too, by the same group of "patriotic Americans".
7. And the whole flight 93 event was a staged one too. And those citizens were murdered by the same "patriotic Americans".
8. There must have been a compact group of co-conspirators in the ranks of the military upper echelons, and of the higher-ups in the FBI, to plant the explosives and fix the DNA record.
They still are working in the background, to suppress out coming revelations of their deeds.
Their leaders have to be found in political, military and industrial circles, and especially banking circles. Nothing would be possible on a scale like 9/11 without major and minor banks assisting in the financing of the 9/11-planning and execution.

B. The fact that an experienced professional engineer who can and has analyzed many crashed Flight Data Recorders, and has many years experience in the field of analyzing crashed FDR's, now has explained to Rob Balsamo from Pilots for Truth and to us all, that it is clear that the FOIA released FDR from the allegedly crashed at the Pentagon AA 77 plane is falsified, makes it crystal clear what the US government top is up to.

That FOIA released FDR was falsified by feeding it altered data during a laboratory workbench session that probably took weeks, months or even years.
They however forgot to insert the Air/Carrier Number, Air/Carrier Type and Fleet Ident data value in every Sub-frame Counter data field, into that thus clearly falsified CSV data file that was extracted by them from the FDR and then painstakingly altered.
And that fact alone indicates that the recent top brass of the US authorities still try to mislead their citizens, and the rest of the world, even nine years after 9/11/2001.

Dennis Cimino, experienced Flight Data Recorder analyst, explains why the FOIA released NTSB FDR, allegedly from the plane that crashed at the Pentagon, is a total FRAUD.
Or click this link :
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10792933

Note that :
FDR = Flight Data Recorder
CSV file = Comma Separated Values data file (extracted from the FDR)
AC ID = AirCraft IDentity
FLEET ID = Airline IDentity

QUOTE
-snip-
Here's the deal with this, nobody is going to convince me that the FDR could be installed in the plane without verifying it had been set up at the L-3 factory, per Boeing information to them, with the proper AC ID and FLEET ID data so the FDR could write that in the preamble, linking that CPM core to the airplane. And until some asshole with credibility shows me how that can happen on that plane, and still pass BIT test each power up in that state, because that shit is part of the system checks, the firmware on the FDR does checks on, with it's own PARITY testing of preamble data, then I just cannot buy this shit as reality. And you shouldn't either, because it's not. And nobody, not Jim Ritter [signed off on NTSB Flight Path Study] or Jesus H. Christ, is going to convince me otherwise, based on those two data fields being missing, regardless of the other bullshit they float about this crap. Because that missing preamble data is not missing because of equipment malfunction. It's missing because it was purposely OMITTED.

It just all comes down to two data fields being zeroed out. No tickee, no laundry. Without those, there can and can never be any linkage of the FDR to an 'N' number in the F.A.A. registry. Not because the 'N' number is in the AC ID field, but the AC ID FIELD number is directly traceable to an N-Number in the F.A.A. registry, and the FLEET ID shows which carrier it went to.

Those missing, that crap could come from anywhere. And without it, I'm not buying it. It's that simple.

Nobody flies boxes with that data zeroed out or missing. Without this data in the CPM, in the preamble, there can be no linkage to an aircraft N-Number.

I saw that on the first look....

....The test person who extracted that data should have seen the NO ACFT ID and NO FLEET ID and said; "oh, this is such bullshit" and then asked his supervisor why they were asking him to decode BULLSHIT.
-snip-



Warren Stutt has tried to counter these allegations from Dennis Cimino in this post #204 of him in the same thread in the Pilots for Truth forum, but what he did was solely introducing a few new value descriptions on top of his FinalFlightCompleteA-F zip file :
http://www.warrenstutt.com/AAL77FDRDecoder...ghtComplete.zip

Which A-F file I unzipped and then found that f.ex. the newly introduced FLEET IDENT value is nearly never written (only a few times as a value of 1 ) in all those Sub-frame Counter value fields, during those last 8 seconds of AA 77's flight in that A-F CSV file he has decoded with a software program he wrote himself (which effort I applaud him for).
His software is however not identical to the software used by American Airlines at that time, to decode intact or crashed FDR's.
The FLEET IDENT value is very easy to be found, because Warren Stutt wrote that FLEET IDENT in front of the, by now widely known value for the flight deck door, which is set as CLOSED for the whole flight.
The values are separated by commas, at the start of his CVS (FinalFlightCompleteA-F.zip) file, like this :
etcetera,FLAP HANDLE POSN (DEG),FLAP HANDLE POSN Voltage (V),FLEET IDENT,FLT DECK DOOR,FLT DIR - PITCH CAPT (DEG), etcetera

The CLOSED remark appears in all Sub-frame counter value fields always only one time as the first value, the one for the FLT DECK DOOR value (sometimes as a pair: ,CLOSED,CLOSED;) ; so it was quite easy to search for "closed", then look if there is a value written in front of it between the commas, and then hit repeatedly the "next search" button, until the last Sub-frame Counter field.

I suppose Warren placed that new air-carrier fleet identification value there (like a number value for AAL, or UAL) to facilitate a search for its true value.
Or is it the designated placement by the factory software? Or by Warren's self made software?

There are a bunch of anomalies to be found when you start a search like that in the unzipped A-F comma separated value file :

- Like no value written nearly all of the time, as like a bunch of commas in front of ",CLOSED,".
- Or a value of "1" just a few times, which is perhaps a Voltage or/and a lost-comma value bug,
just as the many other voltage values in front of ",CLOSED," instead of one or more commas.
- Or a double ",CLOSED,CLOSED," (extremely strange, both values are written far too high in the first 9 lines of each new sub-frame field.! None of that far too high pair of "closed" can be the flight deck door value. Example : sub-frame 151366 has a pair in line 2 of the start of that sub-frame, while sub-frame 151367 has a single CLOSED in line 6. )
- Or the value for flap handle position in Voltage, is written in front of ",CLOSED,"
like these examples :

,FMC DATA,,,,,,,,,CLOSED,NORMAL,
,14.3,3.018,1,CLOSED,,,CAPT OFF,
,-5.4,CLOSED,CLOSED,,,,,,,,LEFT,
,3.018,CLOSED,,,CAPT OFF,CAPT OFF,

The second example gives a 3.018 Voltage value, then a "1" value, then a CLOSED value for the flight deck door. Is the FLEET IDENT for American Airlines perhaps the number one?
But why does it only appear a few times in all those sub-frames (this figure ",1," is f.ex. in nrs 146675, 146739, 146803, 146867, 146931 etc.), while Dennis Cimino says that the FLEET IDENT value, the A/C NUMBER value, the A/C TYPE value, have to appear in all these sub-frames fields.

The stakes must have been, and still be incredibly high, when new US administrations, politicians and military brass are still defending a clearly lost case by feeding us FOIA falsified data.
FOIA = Freedom Of Information Act.

And the most chilling conclusion is, that most western and other foreign administrations did and still do not want to address the 9/11/2001 anomalies at all.
That's really worrying me, the level of dis-interest and sheer loss of intellectual challenge, worldwide.

Find the reason why a few US administrations in a row, planned, executed and defended such a heinous crime as 911 on their own citizens. And then waged war on a global scale.

We do not need any further proof of what happened exactly after that 9/11 attack plane reached the west wall of the Pentagon. Weather it impacted it, or flew over it and away, is of secondary interest and in fact still arbitrary.
We can however already conclude from the many north of CITGO witnesses alone, that a false flag attack was played out on national and international television channels, right before our eyes.
And any solid proof of that has been suppressed in all these years passed since the events of 9/11/2001.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:20 AM
Post #14





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Let us now concentrate for a moment on the witness testimony from Penny Elgas, as written down by the American History website, which was extracted for sure from one of the newspaper pieces from 9/12/2001, the day after, since it is exactly the same as those.
Keep in mind that her statements can mean either one of the approach paths.
South or North of CITGO, it's difficult to find an indication that she in fact meant a North of CITGO path, but I will show you that she must have seen it coming very low from the north side of the CITGO canopy and not much above it :

QUOTE
Penny Elgas (extract from the first part of her much longer interview) :
I had an early appointment on September 11th, so I drove to work later than usual. I work at the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation near the White House. I headed north on 1-395 to DC from my home in Springfield, Virginia and I entered the highway a little after 9am so that I could take the High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) express lane. As usual, traffic was very heavy and after I exited I-95, I found myself stuck in late morning rush hour traffic -- almost in front of the Pentagon. For most of my drive I had been totally focused on my radio and was extremely aware of the events that were unfolding in New York. Even though the radio reporters were cautious, I was already convinced from the first strike that it was not just an unfortunate pilot error. However, I felt that New York was under attack and I couldn't have imagined what would unfold in front of me.

Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew was there. My first thought was “Oh My God, this must be World War III!”



This is one of several of her remarks, that all together can only mean that she stood still where I placed her (also according to the photos which were shot in the first 3 minutes after the impact, from her and Christine Peterson while standing beside their cars on the concrete HOV-lane dividers, looking at the fires) in my below drawing with the 5 yellow numbered light poles, just before but not in front of the Heliport, but "almost in front of the Pentagon" and to the left of lamp post nr 5 or perhaps nr 4, could be one of them or in between them.
That's the only spot where she in her car could have stood "under a damaged light pole" as she, as her first words, begins to explain in her audio interview you can listen to, which I linked to, further down.
That would also have been the only spot 'under' (beside) lamp pole nr 5, where she would have been able to see a plane coming to her from over Columbia Pike, the road that runs perpendicular to the road she was on. That word perpendicular in this description can only mean that she indicated with it, the last part of Columbia Pike, which leads from the north of CITGO to the underpass under Route 27 to end hundred meters/yards further at the Pentagon's South Parking.
And compare it also to Lagasse's priceless remark ""I bet my life on it, that it flew there"", pointing with his hand to the north of the northwest canopy roof of the CITGO ""when it passed me and my car, standing under that canopy"", in other words, it passed him between the north side of the CITGO and the boundary from Arlington Cemetery. Where exactly is still arbitrary, so don't take my green line in the map below at face value, if we may believe Penny Elgas, it flew much nearer to that northwest roof of the CITGO.





Let's for a moment assume that she would have stood still on Route 27 'under' / beside one of the first, fully downed light poles, nr 1 or nr 2.

Firstly she would not have said then in her audio interview that she stood UNDER a DAMAGED light pole, since she said in the end of the same telephone interview that she did NOT see ANY light poles being hit but heard about that later on the radio at home, which poles-clipping she could never have missed to happen when the plane really flew SoC, in which case she would have stood a few cars back from the plane while it crossed not only over the road, but also over the car of Christine Peterson, who reported to have been right under the crossing plane on Route 27.

And secondly, in the hypothetical case that she stood still beside pole Nr. 2 in the HOV lane, she would not have been really able to see the plane coming up from behind her, since there were a few high bushes blocking her rear view on both sides of the underpass of Columbia Pike traversing under Route 27.

She then would have been situated nearly beside where Lloyd England's taxi cab came to a standstill ( which was still driving, when the plane crossed the road; as he said in his CIT interview : cars in his lane were driving normal and not standing still) which cab got the lamp pole through its windscreen on the southbound lane to her left and would have needed at least thirty meters/yards after the pole hit it, to come to a standstill (photographed at that spot there), and she then would have seen the plane crossing over Route 27 a "few cars in front of" her, clipping 5 lamp poles like crazy, however she said nothing like that to the reporters, and in the telephone interview. She even denied to have seen any lamp poles being hit by the plane. Let it be that she saw Lloyd's cab with that long pole sticking through his windshield glass.

QUOTE
""There was a lamp post that the tail of the plane hit and it broke and scattered stuff right underneath it and I was under that, the, the, the street light.


So she seems to mean that she supposes that from the plane's horizontal tail fin, broke a piece off when it hit the lamp post she stood 'under' / beside (which hits she never saw happen as she stated later on!), which shattered-off a white fiberglass tail-piece she picked up from the street a few minutes later when she was clearing her car's front seat for that girl in her twenties, Christine.
But she stood in the center, HOV lane.!
No lamp posts broken there, no lamp posts at all there by the way.! So she never could have stood 'under' a lamp post, only quite some distance beside one that stood alongside the far eastern, nearest to the Pentagon lawn, lane side.
So, she stood beside lamp post nr 5 or 4, and saw a plane crossing, at a distance of a few cars further in front of her. And Christine Peterson, the panic-struck girl she later asked to come sit in her car, was right under that Route 27-crossing plane. And Christine's car stood still within about 30 meters/yards from the first of the two trees along the lawn in front of the Heliport.

QUOTE
Christine Peterson : "For all of my twenty-eight years living in the Washington, D.C. area, terrible traffic was a constant...and now I was officially late for work. I was at a complete stop on the road in front of the Heliport at the Pentagon; what I had thought would be a shortcut was as slow as the other routes I had taken that morning."


And note again that sergeant Lagasse from the Pentagon Police Force bets his life on seeing a plane flying on a North of CITGO flightpath.
Let's listen to Penny again :

QUOTE
In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and I watched everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. It was far enough in front of me that I saw the end of the wing closest to me and the underside of the other wing as that other wing rocked slightly toward the ground. I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane -- I could see the windows and the color stripes. And I remember thinking that it was just like planes in which I had flown many times but at that point it never occurred to me that this might be a plane with passengers.

In my adrenaline-filled state of mind, I was overcome by my visual senses. The day had started out beautiful and sunny and I had driven to work with my car's sunroof open. I believe that I may have also had one or more car windows open because the traffic wasn't moving anyway. At the second that I saw the plane, my visual senses took over completely and I did not hear or feel anything -- not the roar of the plane, or wind force, or impact sounds.

The plane seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I watched in horror as it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the Pentagon. At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the wings disappeared into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and watched the tail of the plane slip into the building. It was here that I closed my eyes for a moment and when I looked back, the entire area was awash in thick black smoke.

I was not sure what to do next. Everyone started to emerge from their cars and, with looks of horror and disbelief, many began to beg for cell phones to call 911, to call family, or to call the story in to their newspapers. I continued to listen to the radio and everything was still about the events in New York. I was absolutely convinced that another plane was headed our way because there had been two planes at the World Trade Center and I felt that we were all sitting ducks on that road. I wanted the traffic to turn around. I didn't know what else to do so I got out of my car and ran back toward the highway yelling "Go Back! They just hit the Pentagon!" But of course, no one could move in any direction because traffic was at a standstill. A young woman in her 20's from the car in front of me was standing in front of my car and was visibly distraught and said she didn't know what to do. I told her that she could come sit with me in my car for awhile and then I went to my car and started throwing everything from the front seat into the back seat to make room for her. I remember momentarily thinking that something was odd about the stuff as I tossed it back, but I didn't focus on it. Just then, a rather large man (from the regular traffic lanes) in a light tan military uniform bellowed to everyone within earshot. "Get Back In Your Car!!" So we did.

Then I became aware of people streaming out of the back side of the Pentagon and congregating on the sidewalks. It appears it was only a minute or two after the impact because they weren't yet looking at the crash site and seemed perplexed as to why they were outside. Perhaps only a few minutes lapsed from the actual time of impact to the time when someone was yelling at the traffic to "Go! Go! Go!" But it seemed like an eternity. As I began to drive, I heard a crunching sound (like driving on gravel) and I saw a piece of metal on the road about the size of a softball (it looked like a small conveyor belt-like roller with pins.) I remember thinking that I could puncture my tires - but in that same thought, I vowed to keep driving, even if I had to ride home on the tire rims. As the car moved slowly forward in traffic, I realized that I was still headed toward my office and I absolutely did not want to go there - my office is on Pennsylvania Avenue, just a few doors down from the White House.

So I made my way across the lanes of traffic and instead, I exited into the Pentagon's parking lot. I circled around to the right and came out under the road that I had just been on -- headed toward I-66 West. It was then that I realized that my car seemed to be shaking and I thought that perhaps I had punctured a tire. It also seemed that my car was moving extremely slow and that I might be stuck in 2nd gear. I looked down at the gearshift and confirmed that it was in "Drive". Then I looked up at my speedometer - and I was flabbergasted to find that I was traveling at over 80 mph and it felt as if I was not moving at all. My car tires were okay, but my little Dodge Neon was shaking because I never pushed it that fast before. I realized that I was still feeling the effects of the adrenaline rush and I forced myself to slow down.

As I drove, I remember being frustrated and thinking that everyone else on the road looked too normal and too unaware of the atrocity that had just unfolded in front of me. I turned off I-66 and when I reached the corner of Glebe Rd and Columbia Pike, I hear a terrible explosive noise (which I later was told was the sonic boom of our fighter jets). I thought it was evidence of another attack. Traffic stopped and people poured out of stores and cars and homes to look up to the sky. I turned on the radio to find out what happened, and heard that a WTC tower had collapsed. So I pulled over to the side of the road to catch my breath and sobbed for all the lives lost and for what seemed to me at that time like the beginning of the end. I turned south onto Columbia Pike and headed home - stopping once to attempt to use a pay phone, but all lines were busy. As I drove farther from the crash sight, emergency vehicles continued to zoom past me toward Arlington, Virginia and the Pentagon.


Please read the second part (A Second Shock) to get the details of her two interviews, one by phone on the day of 9/11 with the local radio station ( WMAL, Chris Core said "Penny from Springfield, What did you see? ) and on the One-Month Anniversary, October 11, 2001, which she visited at the Pentagon River Parade Area.

QUOTE
""We visited the "wall" of American Heroes which was a three-panel board containing the names of each of the dead from the Pentagon disaster and an obituary for each. It was at this wall that Milegro Arcega of the local NBC news interviewed us. Mr. Arcega and his cameraman were extremely respectful. The interview was not aired, but it was another opportunity for us to express our anguish and to heal.
The Pentagon memorial service was very moving and personally very helpful. My co-worker and I were so glad that we were able to be a part of it. After the service, we made our way to the other side of the building, through the parking lot and up onto the grassy embankment not far from where my car had been on the morning of September 11th. Victoria and I climbed up the embankment with reverence, but I was unprepared for the overwhelming anguish that I would experience when I turned around and viewed the gashed building again in the sunlight, for the first time since September 11th. God Bless America!""


Jeffrey Hill ( he seems not to be friendly with CIT ) from the pumpshitout website (screen name "shure") posted a Pentagon witness list here, with some audio fragments from phone interviews with 9/11 witnesses.
This one is from him with Penny Elgas :
Phone call to Penny Elgas 06/05/09
http://www.pumpshitout.com/audio/pe_060509.mp3

It's a very interesting one, especially when you hear what Penny says several times about the plane she saw "passing over the roof of the gas station" and " its wing tip seemed to me to skim over the roof of the gas station", and not one time he dares to ask her on what side of the gas station she saw that plane.
Especially seen in light of the vitriolic approach from this pumpshitout website to the CIT website in all their threads in all its forums, it should have been the first question to come to mind for any truth seeking interviewer. He had several chances to ask specifics about the approach path, north or south of the CITGO gas station, but he tried cautiously only one time at the 01:05 mark :

QUOTE
And like, was it like coming in straight, like a cross, the, the, like was it really low, the, the.


Here he tries to find out if she saw the plane cross over Route 27 in a perpendicular 90° angle movement (a cross) instead of a 61.5° angle, but he does not persist and does not repeat the question when Penny said in return that she ""thought it was actually gonna hit it"" (the gas station).

The rest of the time he directly changed the object, when Penny went back to describing her position in her car when first seeing the plane's approach. He also never asked her where specifically here car was situated when she first saw the plane (as she said, coming nearly over the roof of the CITGO gas station, to the side of it), while she at the 00:40 seconds mark in that audio file (QuickTime Player format) already said this :

QUOTE
""There was a lamp post that the tail of the plane hit and it broke and scattered stuff right underneath it and I was under that, the, the, the street light.


So she seems to mean that a fiberglass piece broke off from one of the plane's tail fins when it hit a lamp post, which shattered piece she later picked up from the street when making room on her passenger chair for that girl in her twenties.
But she stood in the center, HOV lane! No lamp posts broken there, no lamp posts at all there by the way.!
But I can believe that a broken-off tail piece was ricocheted backwards when hitting the west wall perpendicular on it.

Lucky for us, later in the audio at the 12:22 mark and beyond, she reveals to Jeffrey, that she did not see any lamp post been hit, but that she heard later on the news and the TV, that lamp posts had been taken down. And she seems to think that the fiberglass piece of the plane she picked up from the street when she was making room on the passenger chair of her car for that ""young lady, she's in her twenties or something"" that she told to come sit with her in her car, was from the tail from the plane, that's why she thinks that tail hit "a" lamp post.
So now her remark about a street light comes down to that, she simply stood under or near "a", or in other words, one of the street lights lined up along Route 27. Or not at all, since she connects that plane part she picked up, with "downed light poles" she heard reportedlater on the news, so she concluded much later on, influenced by the news, that she must have stood under or near a downed light pole, to make it possible for her to have picked up a plane piece off the ground, that piece had to been broken off when it hit a pole. But we know from 20 witnesses that these poles were staged, since all of them saw a more northernly incoming plane. Which never ever could have hit any of those 5 poles.
As we also know from her earlier printed words, she stood traffic-jammed in the HOV lane, which are the center lanes of Route 27's six lanes, guarded off by long, 0.8 meter/yard high concrete dividers. No lamp posts there, and she could not have seen any broken lamp parts laying on the ground from inside her car from the HOV lane, the dividers blocked all visuals lower than their 0.8 meter height. She also said this in the audio :

QUOTE
The CITGO gas station is on the left, the road in the middle and the Heliport just overhead and then the Pentagon, its all lined up there.


So she describes to have been quite near to the Heliport. The word "there" she used, means I suppose, her viewing point from her car.

At the 03:15 mark in the audio, she says
""I don't know if I saw, ehh, I mean heard the sound what caused me to look out my drivers side window because it was not a normal direction to look at all because the, ehh, the,... my attention was been headed forward and to the right around that and the turn around the Pentagon, but I had never looked in that direction before that I can recall, so I never knew that there was even a gas station across the street."".

And note that she was on a northbound center-right HOV lane which she entered just after 09:00 AM (HOV = High Occupancy Vehicles; lane-access only for cars with more than 2 occupants per vehicle during rush hours from 07:00 to 09:00 AM, after 09:00 AM all other cars can use it again).
She intended to go into Washington Center, to her office near the White House. But after the impact she became afraid that the White House would become another target, and optioned to go home by leaving that HOV lane, exiting Route 27 to the right side and switch to Route 110 (a.k.a. Jefferson Davis Hwy.).
Which Route 27-exit lane to 110 starts just after she would have passed the Mall Parking, north of the Pentagon by switching out of the HOV lane, then crossing over the two unrestricted right lanes to the exit-lane towards the North Parking, that exit is situated just after the overpass of Route 27 over Route 110, the one leading from behind the Pentagon on its river side, under 27 to the outskirts of Washington, west of the Potomac river.
Listen to the 11:45 mark and beyond that to hear her describe it. You must get a grip on the geography around the west side of the Pentagon to understand exactly what these eye-witnesses all talked about.

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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:25 AM
Post #15





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The following map with my remarks on it, and my proposal for the true flight path flown by AA 77 depicted by the dark-blue line, is in my opinion one of my NoC paths which covers the reports of most CIT and other eyewitnesses in most details of its path :




If you look in my first posts above at several of my posted big photos of the area with all the witness positions and the downed lamp posts pictured in it, you instantly understand that if she stood at a standstill near the first "downed" lamp pole Nr.1 or the second one, Nr.2, she must have turned her head nearly 180° to be able to see the plane approach on the officially south of CITGO path, flying from a very small angle behind her. To do so, she even had to lean out of her open drivers side window, to look back.

But she described to have looked out of her drivers window to ""see the plane's nose cone and windshield coming to her"" . No leaning out mentioned at all.
In fact the plane would have been in her mirror's "dead corner" if she stood in a SoC approach path.
She had to look through the back window or the passenger window behind her drivers seat chair.
Only in the position I placed her, near lamp post nr 5, she could have looked through her drivers window to see a plane approaching her on a north of the CITGO flight path, with its right wing nearly skimming that gas stations northern canopy roof.

And we have photos from her still in the traffic jam in the HOV lane, her car and Christine Peterson and her car, shot just 1 to 2 minutes after impact, as told by the photographer who came running from his, along the southern direction leading lane, parked car, near the exit to Columbia Pike. And she stood to the right of the most southernly tree of the two trees in front of the Heliport. This is a picture from Penny Elgas handing over her wooden box with the plane's fiberglass broken part to the National Museum of American History :




At the 07:15 mark she says that the plane was about 40 to 50 feet (12 to 15 meters) above the road when it crossed over the highway, at a spot several cars in front of her.
And she says that she could see both wings their undersides, from her position a few cars back, so it had corrected its slight right bank already just before Route 27, and flew already in a slight left bank position while crossing Route 27. It made that slight left bank maneuver to recover from that 1 km long slight right bank from the Navy Annex to pass north of CITGO and then towards crossing over Route 27. And in the end nearly level off over the Pentagon lawn in front of its west wall.
This same maneuver is also reported by Sean Boger, the Heliport control-tower's air-traffic controller. See his position and remarks on his photo higher up in the first post.


And that long right bank, nor the switching of banks, is not to be found back in the bogus FDR offered to the NTSB through the hands of a FBI official. Somewhere in the line between "finding" that "black"-box, and handing it over to the NTSB, "they" got their dirty hands on the whole orange painted "black"-box, re-programmed the raw FDR data and the CVS file, and placed it back in the hands of those officials which were moving it around inside FBI circles, as if nothing had happened to it.


They made however two huge mistakes, according to the audio file from this
Interview by Rob Balsamo from pilotsfor911truth.org, with Flight Data Recorder expert Dennis Cimino about flight AA77.
Dennis Cimino explains from his long years of experience in handling FDR data, in that interview that :

1. They forgot to implement the myriad instances during flight that the flight number and air-carrier number is normally attached by the instruments and probes their data streams into that solid state memory block.
They all were missing in the FBI-NTSB black box its FDR raw data file and CVS file.
Not one time can the flight number or carrier number be found back in those data.
Which directly proves that the whole FDR is bogus and falsified.

2. They forgot to remove their tracks of at least 35 instances that they re-initialized the FDR's raw data file writing-process to the box sitting on their workbench, while they were at least 35 times altering all these raw data points throughout the whole memory of the solid state memory block of the black box, so it would mimic the official description of AA 77's flight path.
It was no old-fashioned tape recorder or hard-disk, it was a kind of "memory-stick" where that plane's instruments and probes wrote all its raw data to.
This would have been needed to have been reflected in the also attached flight path animation, that the NTSB handed over also to the FOIA applier and they said to have been constructed from that FDR and CVS files they handed over after that FOIA request.
Every instance that one of these 35 re-initializations occurred, we ought have seen that event being reflected in that NTSB-animation as a sudden switch in plane position, altitude, speed, bank, all of them accumulated in the amount of seconds that each of the re-initializations needed to go through that process.
An even more directly visible proof of human intervention in this falsified FDR and its CVS and animation files.

This is the Pilots for 911 Truth forum thread where Dennis Cimino talks further about his opinion of the FOIA released FDR :

Flight Data Expert Confirmation: No Evidence Linking FDR Data To American 77, FDR Data Exceeds Capabilities Of A 757, Does Not Support Impact :

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20999
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:29 AM
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Rob, or any other pilot, could you comment on these posts of Achimspock on the pumpshitout forum?
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpshitout/singl...0&t=3457944 and next ones.

I had the same idea as you had, while writing the above posts, but had not found time to concentrate on it, and luckily we all seem to think along the same logical lines.
Namely, to compare the read-outs from that falsified FDR's CSV-files, from their barometric pressure altitude meter readings, to their radio altitude meter readings, and then compare them to known area map heights, to see if we can find a match with a south or north approach.
You seem to have found a NoC match, but why did achimspock think that the pressure meter readings must be fake? And that they are a consistent 30 meters wrong measured over all his data points? Did he not include the uncertainties for both meter readings?
Radio Alt under 2000 foot = only +/- 1 foot margin in height above everything that passes under a 90° angle under the belly of the plane,
Bar Alt = +/- 30 meters margin above Main Sea Level,
thus the only notable discrepancies will be in the Radio Alt readings? Recording every building, tree and bush it passes over. And the Bar Alt readings will not decrease because of some kind of following of the underlaying terrain profile, but only according to the descend rate above MSL of the plane from Annex to impact point. Pilots will be more interested in the forward altitude readings than in the fast changing readings of the Radio Alt meter, when they fly so low.
If this matter is already solved, then just a link to that discussion suffice and will be appreciated.


I do think, after having read a few more posts on several forums by achimspock, and viewing his two videos :
CIT witness for the Northern Approach pt.1
CIT witness for the Northern Approach pt.1
that I understand where his "CITGO security cameras video" misconception originates from.

And since for me, and many more, especially the CIT witness reports of sergeant Lagasse were the first and most convincing indites for a totally different flight path flown by AA 77, I feel the need to correct achimspock's misunderstanding from which he conclude wrongfully that "Lagasse saw NOTHING!".
He seemed to me a methodical and logical person, that's why I would like to let him understand the following.

He clearly thinks that the digital clocked times in the FOIA released CITGO security tape, handed over by the FBI, are real-time values. And that Lagasse and all the others did not show any sign of reaction when those on-screen clocks showed the official impact time of 09:38:45 AM.
And that's why he is saying that ""Lagasse saw NOTHING! "", because he (and all the others in that video tape) did not react at all when achimspock expected him/them to react, namely at the official local impact time.
Since the clock was lagging behind, that very clear reaction came many seconds later in that tape.

And his second remark, about the straight line Lagasse drew on that map, was not regarding satellite 90° overhead maps from the area which SHOULD have been shown to all CIT witnesses, but CIT gave a clearly strongly distorted Google map, which was tilted to a point of view under a small 20° angle to the soil, and not under a 90° angle.
I suppose, to offer in this compressed and distorted manner, still all relevant positions, on one small A-4 map.

CIT could have asked all witnesses to redraw their flight paths for a second time, now on an undistorted 90° overhead map.
Then an arced (bended) flight path, would have automatically been drawn by all witnesses. We would have had 2 sets of drawings per witness, which would have saved a lot of trouble in explaining the effects of annotations drawn on distorted Google maps on the witnesses perception of the situation, and just as well on their readers and viewers perceptions of what they drew for us on that first, distorted map.

See achimspock's post here :
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpshitout/singl...8&t=3457944
They were however not showing the exact, real local time.
Those on-screen digital clocks readings were off for quite some seconds. More than a minute.

If he had read my postings in a CITGO video thread at ATS from a few years ago, he could have been pointed at the sudden intense flash of reflected light, that reflected from the shiny, white plastic covered, north canopy ceiling, at a spot between the two iron poles holding up that canopy, behind the two most northernly standing gas-pumps.




After which flash event, all the customers inside the CITGO shop, and sergeant Lagasse, and some other people who were filling up their gas tanks, reacted as if they either first saw sunlight reflecting from the fuselage of AA 77 which passed low and fast along the CITGO's northern canopy, and then slammed into the Pentagon with another reflective explosive flash.
Or they only saw the reflected light from an explosive impact and fireball reflecting from that ceiling.
And 1 second later they were of course also hit by the now arriving enormous explosive sound wave from that impact. Sound travels only 333 meter per second. Light to your eye a LOT faster.

And that is the exact moment that everybody started running to the sliding door at the Pentagon east side of the shop to look at the Pentagon, or came running in from the other sides, or, like Lagasse, radioed in to his Pentagon police station his report that he witnessed a plane streaking beside him and then saw a huge explosion at the west wall. And then he threw his mike on the chair, jumped in his car and steered it backwards away from the pump, and sped out of the CITGO grounds onto Joyce Street, and drove at top speed to the Pentagon over the last part of Columbia Pike.
You can all of that see in that FOIA freed CITGO security cameras footage in achimspock's two videos. Better view them in full-screen mode, to see all the tiny details.

References : My media storage for the 12 CITGO security video screen shots I made with my remarks in them :
http://media.abovetopsecret.com/profile_ga...p;album_id=5901
All my albums with quite a few more CITGO maps and interesting photos :
http://media.abovetopsecret.com/profile_gallery/LaBTop/
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:40 AM
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It is always a refreshing feeling, when you find a few convincing new direct eyewitness, like Vin Narayanan, of the real NoC flight path, who even said he stood right under the Route 27 crossing plane before it hit ""its target"", the Pentagon ""only 50 yards away"". And who also seemed to have been used in all these years, by "Trusters", as a solid eyewitness for their beloved SoC flight path. Just as Penny Elgas and Christine Peterson. And Probst and Mason.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/0...irst-person.htm

I was reading achimspocks post #27 in the same thread I was addressing in my above post and saw how his eyewitnesses were positioned over the northbound lanes of Route 27 :
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpshitout/singl...3&t=3457944

In the case of this USA Today reporter, he however damn clearly positioned himself in his own words, under the second huge traffic board that is hanging over 4 lanes from Route 27, so also over both HOV lanes, but not the two northbound normal lanes beside the Pentagon lawn.

Have a look at the picture achimspock posted and his placement of Vin Narayanan under that biggest traffic board that spans all 6 lanes of Route 27, and stands 30 meter before the underpass bridge, thus 300 meters/yards south of the west wall impact point :




Vin Narayanan clearly stood thus spot-on in one of the two center HOV lanes, under the most northern of the two, 4 lanes spanning traffic board, there where that blue NoC flight-path line crosses over that huge 4 lanes road sign and ends up ""50 yards away"" at the impact point on the west wall.
That huge sign is to see as a thin white line spanning from the south end of that long sand pit, over Route 27's two southbound lanes and both HOV lanes, and anchored on the massive concrete HOV-lanes divider ramp.

I suppose everybody understands the difference between standing in traffic at 50 yards/meters from the west wall impact point, or more than 300 yards/meters away from the "target" impact point, at that wrong spot under that full Route 27 spanning traffic board where he is mistakenly placed in that above picture by achimspock.

QUOTE
09/17/2001 - Updated 02:43 PM ET


'Tomorrow always belongs to us'

By Vin Narayanan, USATODAY.com

Terror has won — for now.

For the past six years, I have driven past the Pentagon on my way to work. Now I can't do it.

I don't want to return to the spot where I could have died last Tuesday morning. I don't want to go near the place where I watched hundreds of people burn to death. Those images haunt me every time my eyes close.

I left home at 8:15 a.m. on Sept. 11 to begin what is normally a 35-minute commute. But traffic was unusually thick that day. As I inched my way toward Washington, I considered taking an alternate route — one that would not take me past the Pentagon. But for some reason, I decided to drive my usual way in.

At 9 a.m., sports-talk radio began reporting the attacks on World Trade Center. I switched over to the all-news station for more information as traffic continued to crawl.

At 9:35 a.m., I pulled alongside the Pentagon. With traffic at a standstill, my eyes wandered around the road, looking for the cause of the traffic jam. Then I looked up to my left and saw an American Airlines jet flying right at me. The jet roared over my head, clearing my car by about 25 feet. The tail of the plane clipped the overhanging exit sign above me as it headed straight at the Pentagon.

The windows were dark on American Airlines Flight 77 as it streaked toward its target, only 50 yards away.

The hijacked jet slammed into the Pentagon at a ferocious speed. But the Pentagon's wall held up like a champ. It barely budged as the nose of the plane curled upwards and crumpled before exploding into a massive fireball.

The people who built that wall should be proud. Its ability to withstand the initial impact of the jet probably saved thousands of lives.

I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second jet hovering in the skies.
(LT: That's pilot O'Brien and his C-130. I strongly suspect that plane to have been needed to steer the clearly remotely controlled attack plane during its smooth descend with no rudder inputs in that bogus FDR, then leveling off while in a just as smooth descend into the west wall. If that FDR has only been altered for the last 10 or so seconds, then that smooth curved descend without the use of any rudder corrections, is a strong indication of a pre-planned flight path, fed into a board computer.)

Hands shaking, I borrowed a cell phone to call my mom and tell her I was safe.

Then I called into work, to let them know what happened. But not once was I able to take my eyes off the inferno in front of me.


Need a list of definitive positional remarks?

1. He was standing ""alongside"" the Pentagon. You can't easily say that as a description for achimspock's positioning him 300 yards back, in line with the furthest one-third part of the South Parking.
2. He ""looked UP to his left"" and saw AA 77 flying ""right at him""
In the wrong spot from the picture, he had to turn his head and look behind him, to see a plane passing him at 60 yards to his left side, and not as he described it, ""flying right at him"".
3. This attack plane, while clearly approaching him from a North of CITGO flight path, passed over his head at a height of about 30 feet (25 feet above his car roof), and he was standing jammed in traffic, in his car under that 4 lanes spanning road sign, where the next exits are painted on.
It also went ""straight" at the Pentagon, which most people will tend to interpret as a head-on attack, when they see above picture and its blue NoC line in it.
4. Its ""target was only 50 yards away"". With that statement he totally wrecked any left-over credibility of the wrong placement of his car in the above picture.
5. He was looking at the ""inferno in front of him"". That fits his real position exactly, he had a VIP "seat" while standing perpendicular to the west wall impact point and saw the carnage unfold.


I post these following two recently FOIA-ed videos, shot in the first minute after impact, because the reporter starts filming just before the Route 27 underpass bridge (where Vin Narayanan's car was not present), and then that reporter ran with his borrowed camera just about hundred meters forward, went to the right over the grassy lawn, trying to come near the burning impact hole and diesel generator.
A few interesting number plates and cars to be seen there too, perhaps if you can, check them out :

New Pentagon Footage - AP Reporter Using Tourist Camera Tape 1 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL_gjlJQYaE

New Pentagon Footage - Tourist On Roadway Tape 2 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pc9KGwoSf8

It looks at first sight that some of the downed poles are still standing, but at second thought, they are down, only the distortion in this video plays tricks with your field of depth perception.


I do not believe that Vin Narayanan could have ever dreamed, that his last remarks could end up to have a totally reverse meaning, as in "the real terrorists were the enemy within".
However, his heartfelt words do cover today, with the knowledge we have gathered by now, a totally different scenario than Vin had in mind.
The terror came from within, no doubt anymore.
And not from some Saudi patsies, who ended as "collateral damage", just as all the other innocent real victims.

For us, from now on, the main task is to pinpoint names to these terror events.
And after that, to get them in front of a truly independent judge and jury.


QUOTE
Vin Narayanan : That could happen only in America. And that's exactly what the bastards who attacked us want to take away.

They want us to live in terror. With civil liberties curtailed, free movement restricted and fear in the backs of our minds. They want us to cower before the potential of another strike. They want to control our lives.

And I'm tired of it. Tomorrow, I'll fight back.

Tomorrow morning, I'll drive by the Pentagon. This weekend, I'll visit the monuments and museums in Washington. And in two weeks, I'll go to a football game.

That's the only way to win this war. Every one of us has to resume normal lives. And when we do that, we'll send out a powerful message.

Terror might win for a day. Terror might win for a week. But tomorrow always belongs to us.


It must be an unbearable burden for patriotic people like Vin, to have to realize that from now on, when he drives past that building, he has to realize that possibly an important part of the real terrorists, embedded within the military upper brass, is still plotting future terror events inside that same renovated building.
And are giving orders to get rid of us, historical truth seekers, by all means, from cyber warfare, using intimidation and infiltration, up to the ultimate terror, murder.


That was it for now, I am available for additional info, and mutual respectful debate with me, on anything which you may differ in opinion with my arguments.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 03:55 AM
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Paul, I'm an independent logical thinker, and I really enjoy expertise being shown in every profession.

Its showing itself here in a really positive manner lately.
Despite the sometimes heated exchange of arguments and the tad bit offensive language, you learn to look through and behind the lines....

By the way, why did you quote my whole post first, to write me then a one-liner?
To keep the discussion fluent, it's better to just reply, instead of excessive quoting.
Perhaps you visit other forums too, where people edit their posts extensively.
Then you have to quote to stop them from invisible editing?
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 05:28 AM
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I see some "mature" handling in my post #14 by the automatic board software handlers.
This kind of altering opponents website names can be funny for a day, but no longer, then it becomes annoying.

Especially when that link is revealing the utter weakness of your opponents arguments, unearthed by me.
Now you withhold your friends from listening to that very important audio interview with Penny Elgas, where it becomes clear, that she saw a NoC flight path for the plane.
And that Jeffrey Hill did not want to ask Penny directly where her car was stuck in traffic, and on which side of the CITGO roof she saw the plane pass.
He could have asked a simple question, but he never spoke the so important words "South of" or "North of" in his telephone interview.
And a child can understand that that was the only reason to phone her.
I even do get the feeling that there was mutual understanding between both of them, to avoid these words. When you listen carefully, both avoid them as the Plague. And conclusive evidence where she really stood in her car was also never touched. But photos are a man's best friend.

QUOTE
Jeffrey Hill ( he seems not to be friendly with CIT ) from the pumpshitout website (screen name "shure") posted a Pentagon witness list here, with some audio fragments from phone interviews with 9/11 witnesses.
This one is from him with Penny Elgas :
Phone call to Penny Elgas 06/05/09
http://www.pump.sh.itout.com/audio/pe_060509.mp3

Just delete the ".sh." in your browser address bar, when it comes up with "Server Not Found".

In my opinion, you shoot yourself in the foot when your anger gets a stiff hold on you, thus allowing this kind of kindergarten behavior.

I can tell you one thing, the most interesting things can sometimes be found inside the online spin-doctors and indoctrinators web sites.
I have extracted priceless evidence of misbehavior by official institutes from these sites.
For example my irrefutable seismic evidence that WTC 7 was blown up, was based partly on a photograph with a NIST atomic-clock based time stamp on it, which, combined with the atomic clocked seismograms from LDEO in Palisades, New York state, proved evidently that there was a huge energy event 3 seconds before there was any sign of exterior or internal movement in any photo or video from the global collapse of WTC 7. That event was much stronger than the 3 seconds later starting of the global collapse, even before the roof of the east penthouse started to sink in the roof line.

I found that photo at the govt loyalist site, and one of my opponents at ATS posted it there too. When I thanked him for that, it was one of the reasons to get so frustrated, that he left and never returned under his old screen name. He's now blowing steam off at blogger sites and some other "Truster" sites with that old name.
I miss him, since we had mutual respect, despite our differences.

the govt loyalist site has sent numerous critters to try to counter my arguments, till this day they have never succeeded. Nobody, by the way.
NIST has suddenly retracted all there online seismic references, when my thesis came out in 2007.
And NIST tried a few more tricks, which were all pathetic and useless, and even enforcing my thesis.

So now, could you do something about it? For future references posted here, from sites you hate with a vengeance. I understand the feeling, but stand above them, that always helps.

I promise that I will find and exploit many more gems out of these Truster sites, because I have a whole list in my head of counter arguments against their sometimes childish argumentation to keep Trust in the official line upright. And found many more for them unexpected twists in their data.
That will be a next Quest for me, and perhaps others will learn a thing or two also by sniffing around in their catacombs.
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LaBTop
post Feb 15 2011, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (LaBTop @ Feb 15 2011, 11:28 AM) *
I see some "mature" handling in my post #14 by the automatic board software handlers.
This kind of altering opponents website names can be funny for a day, but no longer, then it becomes annoying.

Especially when that link is revealing the utter weakness of your opponents arguments, unearthed by me.
Now you withhold your friends from listening to that very important audio interview with Penny Elgas, where it becomes clear, that she saw a NoC flight path for the plane.
And that Jeffrey Hill did not want to ask Penny directly where her car was stuck in traffic, and on which side of the CITGO roof she saw the plane pass.
He could have asked a simple question, but he never spoke the so important words "South of" or "North of" in his telephone interview.
And a child can understand that that was the only reason to phone her.
I even do get the feeling that there was mutual understanding between both of them, to avoid these words. When you listen carefully, both avoid them as the Plague. And conclusive evidence where she really stood in her car was also never touched. But photos are a man's best friend.


Just delete the ".sh." in your browser address bar, when it comes up with "Server Not Found".

In my opinion, you shoot yourself in the foot when your anger gets a stiff hold on you, thus allowing this kind of kindergarten behavior.

I can tell you one thing, the most interesting things can sometimes be found inside the online spin-doctors and indoctrinators web sites.
I have extracted priceless evidence of misbehavior by official institutes from these sites.
For example my irrefutable seismic evidence that WTC 7 was blown up, was based partly on a photograph with a NIST atomic-clock based time stamp on it, which, combined with the atomic clocked seismograms from LDEO in Palisades, New York state, proved evidently that there was a huge energy event 3 seconds before there was any sign of exterior or internal movement in any photo or video from the global collapse of WTC 7. That event was much stronger than the 3 seconds later starting of the global collapse, even before the roof of the east penthouse started to sink in the roof line.

I found that photo at the govt loyalist site, and one of my opponents at ATS posted it there too. When I thanked him for that, it was one of the reasons to get so frustrated, that he left and never returned under his old screen name. He's now blowing steam off at blogger sites and some other "Truster" sites with that old name.
I miss him, since we had mutual respect, despite our differences.

the govt loyalist site has sent numerous critters to try to counter my arguments, till this day they have never succeeded. Nobody, by the way.
NIST has suddenly retracted all there online seismic references, when my thesis came out in 2007.
And NIST tried a few more tricks, which were all pathetic and useless, and even enforcing my thesis.

So now, could you do something about it? For future references posted here, from sites you hate with a vengeance. I understand the feeling, but stand above them, that always helps.

I promise that I will find and exploit many more gems out of these Truster sites, because I have a whole list in my head of counter arguments against their sometimes childish argumentation to keep Trust in the official line upright. And found many more for them unexpected twists in their data.
That will be a next Quest for me, and perhaps others will learn a thing or two also by sniffing around in their catacombs.


EDIT: Well well, it shows what sites you see as enemies. Just ignore them, and use their errors.
.J-R.E-F-, (the govt loyalist site) seems to be a no-no here too.

And I am not allowed to edit that last post, no quick edit, no full edit. Board rules anyone?
So I did it my way. (Frank Sinatra did perform that song the best ever.)
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